Early human marine exploration of North America and their vessels

Wow now we're gettin into it, Mainstay, some new books, havent read Gavin Menzies yet, will track them down. The problem with the possible early Chinese visits is to date there is no concrete evidence, The hull in the dunes has recently been sort of de bunked by ground radar. A recent big study of a claimed Chinese settlement road and stone works in Cape Breton N.S. has also been totally de bunked as natural rock formations and an old settlers or native trail. The problem with any info found related to the asian peoples in terms of skulls, dna , and so on it is hard to determine if was an independ visit or a pre Siberian mix of the dna and simply was a part of the siberian peoples migration. All asians with perhaps the exception of the origional Japanese Ainu are closely related as a specific race. Hoyte those stone anchors have also been de bunked, they have determined they were from 19th century chinese fishermen who couldn't afford to buy iron anchors so stuck with their traditional style. Mainstay the Settlement of the Americas book is an excellent one on the migration paths and speaking of the Americas, as i pointed out in another post we must be careful to build on hard facts and not let country border patriotics stimey our thoughts. Mainstay you stated the second wave of Siberians being closely related to the native indians today in the United States, i assume you meant North America. A common problem when a continent contains a super power and one in which historians all over the world are guilty of. This is why i always include in any study of a subject, an author from and an author not from the geographical area involved. I have Morison's books they are indeed good but like alot of North American authors they do not do justice to the Mother Country on this side of the Atlantic that was the beginning of both Canada and the United States. Any proper study of both must include an indept study of Newfoundland, the gateway to Canada and the first and origional New England colony. By the way it was also the first acquired landmass of what was to become the British Empire, the most famous modern empire of which most successful democratic countries today evolved.Ok lets get back in time where we should be, I would really like some input on this new discovery of the Iberian Atlantic crossing challenging the Siberians as a first peoples. It seems to be well documented including DNA, to the point i must admit has my attention and 75% acceptance. Has anyone out there studied this? Once we have a discussion on this maybe we could get into the far northern peoples history of our great continent. Don't be shy we're all amatures on this subject,(i assume which i shouldn't, hey i'm subject to correction other wise whats the purpose) --- Geo.

 

Nice painting, my father was an avid salmon fisherman/guide and a well known fly tying artist. This brings back memories of my youth watching the canoest on the great Humber River hold the canoe in place over a favourite fishing hole at the Big Falls pool. By the way a lady from the U.S holds the record for the biggest Atlantic salmon caught on this pool 55 lbs. I seem to recall. Oops, back to the thread, but still a beautiful painting. --Geo

 

18,000 years ago, when the Atlantic was sea ice.

The Solutreans were probably there first, but Political Correctness seeks to discount the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutreans

Make up your own minds, but remember that new findings every day can disconcert many theories.

P

 

Good man Pericules, was hoping someone would respond in that direction. There is now documented genetic evidence that it actually happened with the genetic markers showing up in present day North American Indians. There is also genetic evidence that the Vikings took a female north american indian back with them to Iceland via Greenland but the Spanish researchers that discovered this can't seem to find the tribe from which the genetics came from. My theory the reason why they can't is because that tribe is now extinct and it was the Beothuck of Newfoundland. This tribe is a bit of a puzzle to scientists here in that they seemed to be so different from other North American tribes, especially so in their language, seems to be totally unrelated to any other known language in the world. I've attemped to contact the Spanish scientists but their web sit is extremely complicated and i can't seem to find a phone number to locate and speak with the proper person. It is possible the Beothucts are actually the direct decendants of the soultreans. The newfoundland government has remains of several of these people so genetic samples should not be a problem. will try another route in contacting the Spanish scientists this week. Will post further info on this. There was an indept documentary on this theory but again i am having difficulty locating it. Very interesting theory which seems to be coming more in vogue. --Geo.

 

George,

It seems that Beothucks managed to wipe themselves out, with help from Micmacs and European settlers bringing diseases such as TB. Without allies, their increasing self isolation was terminal. It is possible the Beothuck language was related to Algonquian?

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-4-2004-51259.asp

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/aboriginal/beothuk.html

There is a 2008 American Society of Human Genetics paper, which claims that the presence of Haplogroup X2 (25% amongst Algonquian?) is not evidence of Solutrean migration across the Atlantic, but the authors seem to me, to be seeking a PC result, by cherrypicking their samples, (rather like NASA GISS and their Global Circulation Models). When I read the weasel words, "our results with the 86 dataset are robust ", I instinctively want to reach for a metaphorical AK47. Robust does not mean correct.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427228/?tool=pmcentrez

As before, new evidence will continue to arise. Just 2 or 3 years ago anthropologists were discounting that Homo Sapiens sapiens interbred with Neanderthals, now what do we have? Denisovans!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12093345

Science is NEVER settled.

Regards,

P

Addendum.

"In Europe, it usually makes up less than 5% of mtDNA diversity." (Could it be that the Solutreans were the founder population for Haplogroup X and when they decamped to North America, they left very few of their tribe behind.? Who knows [yet]?)

Abstract

A maximum parsimony tree of 21 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences belonging to haplogroup X and the survey of the haplogroup-associated polymorphisms in 13,589 mtDNAs from Eurasia and Africa revealed that haplogroup X is subdivided into two major branches, here defined as "X1" and "X2." The first is restricted to the populations of North and East Africa and the Near East, whereas X2 encompasses all X mtDNAs from Europe, western and Central Asia, Siberia, and the great majority of the Near East, as well as some North African samples. Subhaplogroup X1 diversity indicates an early coalescence time, whereas X2 has apparently undergone a more recent population expansion in Eurasia, most likely around or after the last glacial maximum. It is notable that X2 includes the two complete Native American X sequences that constitute the distinctive X2a clade, a clade that lacks close relatives in the entire Old World, including Siberia. The position of X2a in the phylogenetic tree suggests an early split from the other X2 clades, likely at the very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14574647

 

Remarkable!

 

Wow you are deeper into it than I, very detailed and interesting info. I lent my Beothuck language file to a university student and in that file i had the reports of three very well respected linguists from the U.S. They couldn't find any tangiable evidence that the Beothuck language was related to the Algonquian.I seem to recall out of all the known Beothuck words (approx. 350 most commonly used) only three were similar to the Algonquian and that the basis of the two languages were not similar. I will confirm this upon retrival of my notes. When the French invaded the British claimed territory of NFLD (British were busy fighting in Europe) they brought their Mic Mac allies against the British with them. In their favour was also the fact that the Mic Mac hunting grounds in Nova Scotia were becoming depleted of fur bearing animals The Beothuck were an extremely solotary tribe and basically refused to befriend Europeans or Mic Mac to any extent. This reluctance led to misunderstanding with the Europeans and of course resistance to outsiders taking over their traditional hunting grounds. That and disease led to the decimation of what was never a big population. Sad but true. This all resulted in a strange situation in that Europeans are now the sole surviving first peoples on the Island portion of the province. The Mic Mac are not listed as first peoples on the Island, they actually arrived after the first Europeans.They have two small reservations on the Island but these are not reconized by the provincial government and as such they receive federal funding only and have no land claims. The Beothuck were definately a different culture and i feel will prove to be much different than what alot of people think. Now i have to digest your most detailed info. Have you read Saxons, Vikings and Celts by Bryan Sykes, Excellent study on tribal DNA in Britan and Ireland. Geo.

 

George,

Called "Blood of the Isles" in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes#Books_by_Bryan_Sykes

Yes, I enjoyed it very much but I loaned my copy and have yet to see it again. Here is a Steve Sailer article about the book.

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070415_diverse.htm

Race replacement or "ethnic cleansing" as the pc crowd would term it, is not new. If you can hack the religious overtones, this online book at http://www.askelm.com/people/index.asp is worth reading, chapter 11 especially.

The Gavin Menzies books are intriguing. http://www.gavinmenzies.net/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=131

There are very good summaries a bout the vessels and the voyages at;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_ships#cite_note-16

On a non-nautical subject, how do you think these were moved?

http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/baalbek1.gif

http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/baalbek1.jpg

Another has been discovered.

http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/baalbek.htm

Best wishes,

P

 

very interesting stuff. i think the idea that political correctness has to mute this or directly or indirectly challenged native american rightful claims to their native land is ridiculous. earlier settlements here don't supercede NA rights for many reasons (if what seems to be the insinuation about p.c. coming from that direction here is correct) but my guess is that it's a matter of time until we have concrete and more widely accepted proof of earlier settlements N and S America.

when i studied anthropology one of the professors had done studies about settlements in south america from before the land bridge, i can't remember the names or dates but i think it was at least 14kya. I read Thor Heyerdahl's Ra Expedition, and it was a great book and interesting idea, -that it was at least possible for a boat to go adrift out of the popular ocean port in western africa, and drift or sail to south america. most theories i've heard however suggest people came from the other general direction.

 

it would be pretty interesting to study how those stones are moved. one thing we do know is that we lost that technology, despite the common idea that we are so much smarter nowadays. my guess is lots of labor and quite intelligent leverage, balancing tricks, and more.

 

We don't do guesses in boatbuilding, we do practical.

Your guesses must be tempered with reality. Do you know how many men can stand alongside one another and grip the 1200 ton monolith to lift it? That's what experimental archeology is all about. Assuming each man could lift one cwt (112lbs), that would require 24,000 men.

Here's another reality related to human population. It is generally accepted by anthropologists that since mankind evolved, only some 107 billion human beings have lived and died up to now and that the current population for the world is 6.9 billion humans. Assume all those 107 billion people were still alive, allow each individual 4 sq feet to stand upon and Wales (8022 sq miles) would be large enough to accommodate them all.

It is strange, but true. I luv ***kin' numbers & you can take the meaning of that, any which way you want.

As for your claim of studying anthropology, judging by your post, it's a great shame you did not read Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music & Astronomy, because, these seven liberal Arts & Sciences are those accomplishments that render us fit members of regularly organised society. Don't gawp 549, read, mark, learn & inwardly digest! BTW, I'm giving you clues here.

 

Levers and wedges multiply the force of a man. I can move and or lift a several ton boat with wedges and a hammer.

 

No doubt manpower, rollers, levers, were well put to use. The best demonstrarion i have seen of this was a documentary on building Stonehenge. In that documentry they demonstrated a method using a lever system along with rollers that far out performed the standard roller theory, I.E. simply placing rollers under the stone and pulling it along as was the explained method on Easter Island. I learned early in life never to underestimate the ability of a lone human and that two together can out perform three individually and so on and so on exponentially only breaking down with a lack of poor planning and leadership. These defects of course reduced at some point in time in all known civilations by master and slave socities. I also never underestimate anchient technologies, the Chinese water clock being one that has just impressed the hell out of me.
As for early visitors to our area of the world, modern tools Ground radar, Ground sonar, DNA, The modern computer, Satelite imaging, Higher educated humans, are all playing a role in toppling old theories. I personally have a hard time believing that humans have only inhabited the americas for the past say 15,000 yrs based upon the rate at which they spread thru out most of the rest of the planet. "The Settlement of The Americas" by Dillehay is certainly sheding new light on that theory. One final weird thought, maybe we were visited by another world civilation and in addition to moving those 100 ton stones around they also genetically time programmed our DNA to make giant steps in mankind brainpower to allow us time to develop and be ready for the second coming. Did I just say that ? Not my fault the drugs in the 60's were just too dam good.---Geo.

 

The latest research of the Clovis people......These people were identified decades ago by the particular way they napped flint for arrowheads and spearheads. They are found mainly in the eastern south and central US extending up into south eastern Canada, with the sites dating from 13000 or more ago. The Clovis or tool making characteristic are markedly similar to tools also found in the Iberia (Spain, Portugal, and Southern France) of about the same period. There are also Genetic markers appearing in both sides. Paleo DNA of North American fragments show no Oriental markers, but some markers coinciding with similar aged fragments on the other side of the Atlantic. It might be noted that native tribes in this area of America in the modern age have a facial structure more similar to Europeans than natives elsewhere on the Continent.
It seems there is good evidence suggesting migration between Europe and America a long long time ago. Speculation, perhaps the Ice bridge across Britain, Iceland Greenland, and down the eastern seaboard.
I note the latest reports I have read show tools being found several feet below the Clovis sites, and these are tentatively dated to around 20000 years. some other evidence is pointing back as much as 50000 years.

Certainly the Vikings made it as far as Newfoundland, and though there is no unambiguous, physical evidence elsewhere, the sagas certainly hint that at least trading missions (furs and lumber?) were coming down from the Greenland settlement for a few hundred years after Erik the Red, say up to the 1200's.

 

Gonzo,

Arithmetic!!

The Sarsen stones weigh between 20 to 30 tons, the Bluestones up to four tons. The behemoth in the Bekaa Valley weighs 1200 tons. Try levering that with lengths of Lebanon cedar. Look at the size of the man against the building and the size of the monoliths in the lower sections of the temple wall.

http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/baalbek1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baalbek-Jupiter.jpg

George,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

I agree that logs and levers will move concrete blocks as shown in the documentary to which you referred, but scale up the levers and logs to a order of magnitude sufficient to trundle 1200 tons and the realisation dawns that that is why the monolith has stayed where it is.

http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/baalbek1.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_the_Pregnant_Woman#Second_monolith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek

gilberj,

More below.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/skthroughsp/qt/solutrean_clovi.htm

http://archaeology.about.com/od/clovispreclovis/a/clovis_bib_2.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_point

Anyway, back to boats, how about those lateen rigged feluccas (silenas) in San Francisco in the 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SF_felluca_from_NARA_116.jpg

Here is a replica rounding a buoy.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?107588-Back-to-basics-cruising Scroll down.

Norse rigs.

http://www.hildringstimen.no/BATLISTA.HTM

Evolved into the Humber Keel.

http://www.humberships.org.uk/humber-keel-comrade/humber-keel-origins.html

Chinese treasure Ships.

http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=tr...tle&resnum=3&ved=0CDwQsAQwAg&biw=1024&bih=593

Mayhap we shall see their like again.

http://www.archaeology.org/0803/abstracts/zhenghe.html