Do boat designers need to be naval engineers

Great sketch Alik !

 

Yes - I agree.... it depends entirely on the SOR. For the naval craft that have been mentioned, stylists have little or no place. For the pleasure boat that is intended to float around Med marina's their input is of greater importance. And there are infinite degrees in between... it all comes back to the SOR, as Ad Hoc noted on page one of this thread.

 

Another thought... this is by no means confined to work done by 'designers'. Any NA that tells you that they've never sat down and put abstract ideas to paper - either to test their validity as an idea or simply as a way of visualising a concept - is either completely devoid of any creativity or telling porkies.
Some of those idea's will work... some won't. Where I have a problem is the notion that because that idea comes from a designer not an NA, it must automatically be dismissed as a folly...

 

In car design, based on my experience, the best combination of design, styling and engineering occur when:
- all are participants at the beginning of the project and remain engaged until the end of the project
- there is trust and respect among the participants
- everyones acknowledges that there are different, valid ways to assess the design
- everyone's goal is to produce the best design for the customer

 

Dave
A ship unlike a car has the owner ultimately making all the final decisions not dictated by class or flag requirements. Imagine what it would be like if the stylist and prospective purchasers designed the RV and then gave it to the engineering department ! Sure it can have 16 wheels a hot tub upstairs and a ships funnel but what about road handling economy and performance?

That's how it often works with Naval Architecture and how the stylist can end up running the show to the significant detriment of good design principles.

Some stylists have quite obviously never been to sea in their lives and have very little idea of the basic principles of Naval Architecture. A stylist involved in road vehicle design will at least have a lot of experience using similar vehicles and an innate understanding as a user of the vehicle.

 

I was asked This question last week !what is the differance in building a car to a boat ??

This is in answer to that question from last week !!
Which is the hardest to build a car or a boat ??
After some thinking they are really quite similar but completely different!
Cars these days have progressively got lighter and lighter and there materials used have improved vastly ,the thickness of panels and framing has thinned down in but taken on more shape in an attempt to reduce weight without sacrificing strength but there materials used in there construction have gotten better in the process !!.
Speed and handling has increased dramatically and got much ,much better with almost race car performance being the demands of the person buying a new car today!!.
The greatest steps forward have been in design and safety and the adoption of airbag safety equipment that is now fitted to all cars as an acceptable standard by all car manufactures.
Designs that now use race car technology learned over many years are used to make the average family car much safer with better road holding as speed has steadily increased to be able to exceed the magic 100 mph without too much effort !.
Motors have gradually got smaller and lighter but with new innovative design and better metallurgy in addition sophisticated electronics that are able to keep the motor in fine tune all the time coupled with a much better understanding of the internal combustion principles and the addition of fuel efficient injection Plus the addition of turbo charges on some models the horse power per kilograms has shot up dramatically to a point that was almost unimaginable in times gone by !

The major differences are if a car breaks down it can stop on the side of the road and the driver can get on the phone and call for help ,a tow truck can arrive and pick it up and take it away to be repaired !!
BUT !!
A boat if it breaks down in any way in any place could quickly get into a dangerous position where I could drift and put all the occupance into grave danger in a very short space of time to the point where it could cost lives!!
There is the possibilities also of losing the boat totally and could be gone forever!!.
This is why every part made and used in building a boat is important! Be it a small piece of ply wood framing glassed in under the floors unseen for ever more or the cushion that the skipper sits on ,everything is important !!.
Every part has to work in conjunction and unison with everything else!.

Unfortunately the boating industry is sadly lacking and really dragging the chains of progress and development on all areas.
Experienced and established Designers are still giving us boats that have never changed much over the years!.

As more computers have become the tool of the moment and cad and design programs have become easier for any novice of any age to be able to sit and with no actual boating knowledge or experience draw and design some clever and very innovative ideas but very few of these designs ever make it past the ideas stage.

Very little in the way of the fibre glass materials to build boat from is actually made excessively 100% for the boating industry! Almost Everything we use every day comes from some other industry !,could be the building industry or if it's a little high-tech it could have come from the aircraft industry or even from space technology .
Oh sure we have special marine resins that are hard to find in the great long product list and different glasses and other materials that are woven specifically for some high production boat building companies that have specified the manufacture of their own buildings product !

From the moment the first layers of glass are applied till the last component is fitted, sealed and bolted in place, everything on a boat is important!!.
Boats are very complicated to build and to maintain to a high degree and kept in a constant and continual safe useable condition!

Starting with the hull and the deck the glass schedule and the way it is set out is important. Just piling layers of the first glass you lay you hands on and hoping for the best are the bad old ways of the past ! .
Boat’s were being built and very little thought of its ultimate strength was known or even considered.
The finished weight really didn't matter! You want to go fast Just fit bigger motors!!!, with bigger motors so more and bigger fuel tanks to feed the hungry beasts.
Same with speed!,just fit bigger motors into it ,it will go faster !!.

In this day and age all is beginning to change and people want more for less !,more speed and better economy and go further for less fuel and go faster than the boat next to you .

Weight is a constant battle in the sailing fraternity!
Heavy boats don't win races!! no one wants them if they don't win !!
This same attitude has rubbed off to the ordinary sailor as well ,he is asking “why can’t I have a fast cruising boat? “

This is becoming an issue similarly with power boats customers as well!
Customers in the market for a power boat are beginning to look for lighter power boats , boats that are better built using exotic materials and the latest eco friendly motor to go further and faster !
They also want to have every conceivable modern accessory that opens and shuts and all the home comforts!.

The construction of the hull and deck are just a part of the weight saving areas.

If we save 100kgs out of a hull and deck ,then the owner wants to fit bigger fuel or water tanks or he wants a bigger genset that could power a small town to run all those fancy TVs, computers ,lights ,cookers ,coolers ,and freezes ,air conditioners ! and so the list goes on and on !!.in the end we have saved nothing at all !!

This should never be the case !,Weight saving is a whole package deal !! it's a total exercise !,it's a case of having to consider everything being used to keep that all important final weight figure down ,but without compromises or sacrificing quality and performance in any way !!
More thought and care has to be taken by the people specifying equipment and doing the ordering of everything that's being used in the boat.
This is not just the responsibility of one department to do all the saving when others just carry on as normal and do their own thing . Glass , resin , plywood for the many parts of the internal construction ,Size and thickness and weights all creeps up each day as little by little the kilos keep getting added !
Panels of ply are another source that has to be seriously addresses Also the use of solid timber used for engine beds , then there’s the size and weight of motors and all other mechanical items . Genset’s and batteries, water and fuel tanks. What size and what material to use , the cabinetry and internal frame work ! the furniture , carpets and linings . The multi cladding of layers of plywood and glass that is totally ridiculous , mentioned recently was the use of all heavy chain instead of the combination of rope that is normally used
Gentle men this is a major issue!! It has to be addressed like it or not and it has to start now , tomorrow is too late !!

Just think about this!
Changing laminates and saving glass and resin weight is just a start !!,all the internal frame work , the heavy solid timber!,and bulkheads etc The glass furniture and seats and framing . All these things must be looked at very seriously !!
Now we move onto the bits! ,Motors and drives ,gen sets , batteries , fuel tanks , water tanks ,pumps ,holding tanks , basins , bench tops , doors , walls , internal linings ,beds ,squabs ,stoves ,refrigerators ,cookers , TV , micro waves switch boards . The main console and all the fancy instrumentation and hydraulic steering, the fancy leavers and switch’s and the countless metres of wiring. The electric anchor winch and the stainless steel bow fitting!
Not forgetting the Bow thrusters and its pipe that's used to fit it to !.
Move to the back of the boat and the boarding platform,
The Hardtop alone is one huge amount of weight just on this one single unit !!it urgently needs to be totally redesigned and make over , Glass windows need to be replaced with a lighter weight substitute material .

How long will all these things take to implement??
It all need to starts right now !!.
Everyone has to change their way of thinking!!
Everyone !!!
It's a whole team effort and everyone in the company has to participate from the top management to the bottom !
Weight saving saves money for the company and puts them in a very good place for their future. Because other companies ,like it or not will have to do the same!
This could be a massive selling strategy for ######## to manufacture and sell boats overseas.
Already USA boat manufacturing companies have realised they need to change and are actively doing all these things all ready !!! If you don't get with the current trends and desires that customers will demand you will not sell boats !!
Very quickly European boat manufactures will be jumping on the band wagon and doing the same !! so I say let’s not be left behind and have to play catch up when the boating industry slowly comes out of the recession and boats begin to sell again .
Doesn’t not matter what country it is @@@@@@@ has to stamp its standard of quality and performance for others to take note of !,even boating companies here in China will have to sit up and take notice eventually!!
I say to@@@@@@@ Don't be left behind !!
Think !!
Heavy planes can't fly very well !!
Heavy cars live in the past and are collector’s items of past failures !!
Heavy sail boats fill the for sale columns of boating magazines in all countries!!
Heavy power boats stay in marinas as no one is interested in using them because they are too expensive to run and own!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Differences in customer preferences
Chinese customers tend to use yachts (and power boats ) differently than Westerners, preferring to
use their yachts for business entertainment purposes
They are highly unlikely to use it to enjoy the water and sun; they are more likely to
spend most of their time in the air-conditioned spaces!
For foreign yacht manufacturers, understanding the differences in preferences and
use of the yachts is crucial in adapting yacht designs to Chinese tastes
For example, a karaoke room is essential for most Chinese buyers, and emphasis
Should be placed on the indoor recreational spaces, such as areas for playing
Mah-jong and cards
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western boaties use their boats to go away for overnight and weekends or extended cruising! or fishing or just the pleasure of being on the water !

Travelling long distances can be a one ,two or three week long holiday vacation .

Boats could be used in any and all weather and sea conditions,!!
Families including children and friends are regularly accommodated on most cruises.

Fishing, swimming and diving are regular activities for cruising boaties and carrying a small to medium sized tender complete with reasonable sized outboard motor to be able to pull a water skier or the same tender could have a mast and sails, centreboard and rudder to go sailing in !.

 

this is exactly what many an engineer feels, but-

1. What sets us off is often the shock of seeing the way that they chose to present the design moreso than the content itself. We just can't make sense of the hash of the presentation. If we are clever, we may realize that there is in fact a method to what they are doing, even if we feel that our designs get tarnished by the process.

2. There has always been and always will be a conflict between the fine arts and the performing arts. One wants to create an object that can be cherished for all eternity, and the other wants to create an impression that will last in the memory for a lifetime.

3. If the novelty wears off, so what? does the stylist loose any sleep? Does the NA? Where do billionaires rank resale value in their SOR? Stylists are superbly in tune with "sale" and oblivious to "resale". Resale is probably a negative indicator to a stylist- they ought to have created something new by then. Are the engineer's expectation of lifecycle costs and operating costs for a billionaire's yacht really in tune with those of the owner, or are we applying metrics from the commercial fleet world that just really don't reflect the owner's concerns?

I also wonder if the fact that both the engineer and the stlyist are now working on very similar digital platforms is somehow bluring the customer's ability (and our ability?) to distinguish between the two disiplines? We hardly ever get a newbie who asks what we think of their styling. They ask what we think of their design. But many are just fishing for someone to say it looks cool. Media matters. If the consumer can't tell the difference between a stylist and a designer, there are big changes coming to this business in the near future. And there will be winners and there will be losers.

 

I've seen examples of the same thing in the car business, sometimes refered to as the "throw it over the wall" method. Style it, then engineer it, then make it function and figure out how to build it. Doesn't produce very good cars.

Today, with the increasingly stringent safety and enviormental standards as well as the number of manufactuers offering excellent cars at very competitive prices, a manufactuer using the "throw it over the wall" system probably won't be competitive.

Similarly, one might think some car stylists consider cars to be mobile sculpture without any function other than asthetic appeal.