Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by westsail42, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Li Poly is a way to go, with a sophisticated power management system involved.
    And there we are again:
    Achieving the impossible................ is the name of the whitepaper.
    It might be not convenient for you to stumble through 70 pages of a technical paper, but it is by far the best way to improve your knowledge within two hours. And for us it´s much easier to discuss at the same level of knowledge.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  3. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Read yes, but what ?

    You are so kind to discuss with the ignorant i am, master.

    Any battery needs management to live longer, a clever electronic manager can be the same price than a poor.

    When 10 years of battery life is reached, cost is low per KW

    I'm ready, i love reading :)
    Where are the 70 pages to read ?
    So a link ? An FTP ?

    Thank's Richard
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2009
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Just go back to one of my previous post, #206 two pages or so.
    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    this :
    http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20070607/
    Page 82 ?

    Oh yes i read it already.
    Nice

    i love page 94 also :))
    Work on co and co² intoxication inside boats with fuel engine is very interesting.


    About above hybrid paper
    Nice also the perverted job to look for the worst efficiency to compare hybrid figure cases that do not exist in true life

    This article on hybrid is close to manipulation as it forgets to speak of the hundred of hours you will run on batteries, in port and short distances

    it forgets all about the capital fact that you now have an hydro generator giving electricity, as much as 50% of rated power on fast multihulls...
    Forgot this detail ? Strange work indeed ?

    About bad efficiency in heavy sea ?

    In heavy seas, sir, i sail, this is far much comfortable and safer...and without fuel.
    this article tell us hybrid is low efficient if you never use batteries. What a study !

    It is inefficient to motor in windy condition. Terrific discover !
    Really, nice work but mammoth logic, and false conclusions.
    The only thing this paper teach us is that "fuel burning" is not adapted to efficiency

    Corrupted oil days are numbered said a smart post ...
    I like this definition

    In real life Richard, hybrid sailing boats are far more efficient than non hybrid
    Any converted multihull is giving the same result : Much more comfortable, much cheaper to use and maintain.

    And to go futher in the logic

    I understand the need for hybrid, but i have learned sailing without a motor. I keep sailing this way with pleasure, so with an additional electric motor working for limited time periods is enought for my conception of what a sailing boat is.

    a sailing boat is mainly powered by wind, not motor.
    Motor is a ad_on, a help, a complement.
    Hybrid trawler is different type of sailing boat i respect but it is not a possible choice as the efficiency for EB conversion is too law

    Prefer simple light fast boat, petrol free, small electric help. A security with the tender outbord mounting point is inexpensive and enough for most
    emergency cases
    A fast light sailing boat is a safe reliable boat, getting much safer with short electric helps
    This means that i accept to wait when there is no wind and no sun
    And as soon as i find a light diesel 48V DC group, high performances including water exhaust injection, will paid for it and run it with any oil available, and no more than just a few litre a year..

    Sorry i may be a little too radical, I've been thought sailing like this !
    And the inside of my boat is too small
    Having this giant 1GMYanmar inside was eating all my vital space !
    Prefer without

    electric motor is less than 30 cm/15Kg for 5 kw and can be installed protected
    When boat is folded after a container crash by example, electricity can be dead but could probably still sail slowly, and doesn't sink so easily, it is the charm of multihulls !
    IP68 motors or pods resist to water, if the battery is protected, electric motor still works, and heat less !
    Electricity can be very safe and reliable too in water environement
    Cats and tri are made to be electric because they are fast so use less, produce more, hardly sink if they remain light

    Just batteries means more available space and less or same weight at a much more central place!

    Wingover is perfect for hybrid mainly without oil.
    Since this picture i took out 400 Kg of extra weight of all kind
    Stainless steal, brass, iron, water sleeping small corner, 70 litre fuel tank...some rotten wood too !
    Just miss some volume at stern, both amas and central hull. This is the big summer job... with electric propulsion of course
    A lot to do, but i guess performance will be very good
    It will be a very fast sail and electric boat

    And for info, even at 1500€ (so a 1/10 of new price) two complete 1GM YANMAR with accessories, brass folding propeller, (the one inside and the spare) i have difficulties to resale these 2 old engines ...!
    Bad sign for diesel propulsion
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 8, 2009
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Now I have a clue what you are going for.
    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    This is WINGOVER
    And will give new PICs when going on. ProVu, another much lighter 2 tonnes F40 tri, could be done this this year also...if the economy doesn't collapses before, of course .

    To sum up my actual vision for small boats and hybrid is:

    "A plan' is full electricity, no oil
    small light narrow boats are good candidate for non hybrid full electric choice
    A soltion is starting with DC brushed motor, mechanical controller or electronic PMW, very safe if pure mechanical well done, optional regen MPPT controller can be added. This is demonstrated by OZ MARINE in sweeden with a smart mechanical shifter that can last for years. Emergency direct drive is always possible. Direct driving is a good solution as brush life is 2000 to 5000 hours.

    A' is brushless PMAC with Sensor controller, sensorless if proven to be managing quick starts, 60 votls max, 50 better because you still get a lot of power sources to connect. But in this case controller is compulsory...a spare one is not idiot ...can be the stern pump Thruster' controller if exist, will be the same.

    Pod give you plenty of space and very low noise and if high voltage, safer for you because outside.

    For for both AC and DC, short and twisted cables to limit EM inductive pollution of navigation equipments
    A galvanic separation helps a lot
    These A type installations can be done full IP 65 to 68.

    8 to 24 poles motors, shafts, big end bearings and belt reduction, high efficiency propellers, mechanic and electronic controllers, industrial basic products are needed,
    Any Bearing should have a grease access to clean salt out. Then can be used for 50 years or more. We can do such products for the same cost. Every 100 or more hours clean grease and condensation and go for again and again. Life time bearing is this way on earth, in space you can use ceramics :)
    But these products are not here, slowing down development, what are we waiting for to produce these things ? The actual industry encouragements, the "oil engines" manufacturer's subventions and advices ?
    The Mammoth kiss maybe ?



    If, "A plan" is broken or empty, we go to B plan !




    "B Plan"
    The axe/Tender's outboards- unbeatable price because you already have it. Can can be a real pain in the arms and neck when single handed ! Do not forget to test your emergency solutions before you need them :)


    "C plan"
    is a conventional portable group with a DC charger or a "quattro victron"'s style box, but not 4k€ 0.4K€ is better ...Giving 3 kw is ok to keep on moving at low speed a light boat, cost 1 litre per hour

    "Plan D"
    light low volts generator, very small and efficient 28 / 56v left outside removable, simple.
    Plane or forklift industrial connector DC28V
    Will cable amps lost be worst than a DC charger ? Could be close, but "D" just more simple as direct to batteries.



    Motor Controller should be both 220AC and DC.


    Think small and light, this is less expensive and safer.
    And we are poor now, no choice
    Times of river of gold for pleasure craft is over
    A good source of inspiration for designing electric solution that do not fail is to look at the planes solutions.
    Any case of failure is secured by another equipment, till all is down
    Boats have the lucky advantage to have time to stop and do repairs :)

    Plan E, is to go sleeping



    Used to be that ...
    Nice and pleasant presence don't you think ?
    And what a nice CO/CO2 water muffler producer we have here !
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  8. M-Sasha

    M-Sasha Guest

    İ am not shure that you did follow all the links apex posted! But would recommend to do, he really knows what he ıs talking about.

    Sasha
     
  9. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Yes ! Could be i may have missed things !

    Why don't you make a summery here with a few recalls for beginners like me

    Just the main links + a few comments on what it is is great about idea or principal

    Many thanks will appreciate !
    But once again i am only interested in non fuel solutions.
    Fuel hybrid, Fuel + CPP, wonderfull, Lister, in England 60's, used to do great CPP motors

    This doesn't mean it is not a good solutions, CPP are great for any propulsion, i just want to do without oil as much as possible,
    i give you good money for a light super efficient marine 3/4 Kw DC 50 V group, i do not need anything more oil based in a boat

    will keep CPP of course when budget is less tight


    Even the names do not match " Dieselsail" impossible to say ...without spitting


    Compare, say electric sail ! Makes you smile !
    It works ! Makes u happy

    It is a choice, just like apple or banana.
    A principle, an idiot strong, choice i admit !

    So my principle will be a sailing boat with auxiliary electric propulsion being, IP68 on 1 metre high inside for more than 24 hours.
    That is to say it works as much as you need folded by 1 meter of water inside hull.
    this is a good simulation of a boat in heavy difficulties.
    This goal is very easy to achieve in an electric multihull.

    My cost will compulsory have to be under the cost of an identical IP 68, 65 fuel solution.
    If i can stay close to 6k$ including windmill, for 5 Kw, trust 180 lbs nominal, 40 cool cruising, can do double nominal trust for short periods 2/10 minutes
    Autonomy is deep as your pocket is.
    Mine is tight, so my autonomy will only be above 1 hour full, 5 cool.

    Labour should be light too, very basic qualifications, and low hours to install the equipment.
    The time i spend on internet has to be compensated this way :)


    Will be fine for me and the 40 feet/3tones to move I'm sure... as i already sail 5 Knts 4 adults in light air (6/7 Knts).

    If your boat is light, electricity is realistic choice, if heavy and fast (with sails :) ok, if heavy and slow...open a restaurant inside ?



    But the big thing about a sailing boat, is that you must learn how to use it

    Sail+electricity is a great association, with the big drawback that you must know how to ...Sail
    You cannot sell a electric-sailing boat to an incompetent or a guy in hurry, because the incompetent fails when he use the sails and the hurry one wants to go 20 Knts when he decides
    With fuel or diesel hybrid, you can satisfy nice persons like you and me but also the incompetent and the rabbit.


    Windmill boats will certainly clear this problem, i think
    But some sail should be kept for side and down wind without ...Noise, including infra spectra very rich close to mills.

    http://forum.go-here.nl/viewforum.php?f=35


    Do our solutions, we will see !
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    quote:
    Why don't you make a summery here with a few recalls for beginners like me
    quote

    Because I do´nt have the time, that´s it.
    But I pointed to these links several times, the task to come to valuable conclusions has to be undertaken by each individual himself, naturally.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    To go in your way, my solution is poor to go up a river, would need fuel then to run a 2 or 3kw 50V CC generator to feed batteries. light clever one with water injection exhaust are enough
    water injection in a motor is surprising !
    Used at the inlet and the outlet too.

    in admission chamber
    Used by Renault with first F1 turbo motors
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
    Fresh water only i think

    in exhaust gazes
    http://www.msdpowersports.com/pwc_waterinjection.html
    Great effect ! Cost ...Fresh water. May work with salt also




    Now on a river i can get electricity at night also
    But ok, will keep a corner outside near the tail, for a fuel generator direct DC. It is a good security for low cost.


    What other problem do you see to my choice ?

    I'm stopped when no wind for more than 12 hours at night, yes.
    Then i read and sleep, do cleaning, check oil leaks on the engine, no ! Being stopped a day is nothing but a cool day like another.
    if you cant stand that start a micro fuel generator high efficiency water injected.
    fuel is for emergency only, but admit it can be many emergencies, money, heart...



    I see another one
    i bother the mammoth, and it is bad idea to disturb the mammoth when he sleeps.
    But as mammoth are in crisis at their size (some say they lost all their reserves), they do not sleep anyway !
    Time to do new things it seems.

    What other vital problem could you see ?
    It will help me, do not hesitate , i like to get other's opinions.

    About link i love this one about wind cars and bike and planes !
    http://knol.google.com/k/gaby-de-wilde/the-wind-powered-car-project/1yrf1mzjtxzk5/8#
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nice as well, that you completely EDIT you posts after gaining some knowledge, to contradict in a senseful way!
    You act as a child.
     
  13. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Thanks for this kind compliment
    I keep on editing my work and knowledge, yes that is right.
    I also edit my work because i an never pleased with my work, i always think i can do better.
    This is called progress and freedom
    I edit all that needs to be improved, including my ideas and old objects to give them a second life.

    So i edit and refit my trimaran with double hybrid propulsion.
    Sail/electric
    Electric/petrol hybrid was avoided at the beginning of my project, but is coming back in the solution as my next mooring will be on a river and i am not certain to get big enough lithium batteries park for motoring against winter stream.
    Another interesting aspect is the possibility of direct mechanical drive of propeller by the generator ICE used as a safety device.

    For weight and size reasons i do not think i will use diesel generator, but rather an unleaded, high speed to keep it small

    So as you can see i edit my project too
    Sorry if you do not feel comfortable with this, my aim is not to disturb you.


    This being said, i have a question that you may answer

    What would be the technology and cost for a VPP to accept...5Kw ?
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member


  15. thudpucker
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Location: Al.

    thudpucker Senior Member

    Brian that was interesting yet confusing.
    Did it say that Bike was driven by an electric motor, but the power for the motor came from a Gas engine running a Generator?:)
     
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