Did a dream got shattered?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by BertKu, May 16, 2010.

  1. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Hi Bert,
    Noticed a post after a long nearly 6 month absence? The trials and tribulations of boat building and design :D :D

    I have doubts that you will achieve 2KW? from the generator end on the mast? - What size blades to you intend to mount to catch the wind energy?

    http://www.planetarypower.com.au/wind_power.htm on the AIR-X Marine wind turbine
    Specifications
    Rotor Diameter: 46" (1.14 meters)
    Weight: 13 lbs (6 kg) - Start up wind speed: 7 mph (3 m/s)
    Voltage: 12 & 24 VDC - Output: 400 watts at 28 mph (12.5 m/s) - Air X Marine 24V 400W wind module - Au$1,605.00

    as opposed to 4 stroke petrol power http://morethanbatteries.com.au/products/2KW-Bushpower-Inverter-Generator.html or http://morethanbatteries.com.au/products/1-KW-Bushpower-Inverter-Generator.html and I have a 6000W output 722cc 3 cylinder 24v or 48v charger available based on Kubota engine and 2 x Delco 20 pole brush-less alternators for sale still unused. (about 100kg in weight)

    The commercial product numbers do not look like transferring to your technology expectations - mainly the biggest constraint is blade size and diameter... the bang per $ may be better in 'wind turbine' compared with PV panels but the blades will have to be HUGE.................

    That is the sort of issues I was having to confront... I ended up with AGM batteries as the management during charge and maintenance, at that time, was the biggest issue for me and that stopped electric drive as the power cable runs gave problems. The whole system has to be configured, TESTED and sorted first, then the boat built accordingly - - By then a whole new batch of technologies become available and make your earlier efforts wasted :eek: :eek: - - In the end I cut my losses and built as best I could with reliable and robust presently available technology with no real option to upgrade apart from adding a mast and sails.

    Best wishes.
    masalai
     
  2. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Masalai, Good morning by now.

    Yes, you are right. However, I was more considering the Helix Wind turbine concept. 1,14 meter in diameter of a convential type blade and than getting a bash against your head is not advisable. I tested the system on a power 900 watt drill and it appears to give me some 800 watt torque out. i.r. I will loose 8% in the generator and 8% in the motor + 2 % in the cabling. It has to turn at least some 100 rpm, to get the Back EMF giving enough swing to make the motor turning sensible. Masalai, I have been following your story in the background. Sometimes with a wide grin on my face, othertimes I felt for you. But in my case I am experimenting. It does not matter that it takes 5 years. We have spent over a million on our horses, which is also a hobby. To spent also some money on this boat, is just like all hobbies which cost only money. In your case, you needed a good working boat to start a business to make money.

    But I was not very happy. I bought 4 building plans, had a small problem and then was brushed aside, I was not amused. Just to attach one page to an e-mail or fax it , how much time would it have taken?. How much would you have asked me, 2 dollars, 3 dollars? After sales service is what I have always given to my customers. Maybe in your part of the world it may be different?

    Masalai, as an electrical person, I am not worried about electrics. I have made the controllers and motors first working and I am quite happy with it. Now the hull will has to be made.
    A 29 feet is too large for those 3 motors, I feel. Although from many different corners I heard that it is O.K.
    Bert
     
  3. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Hi Bert,
    Good on yer, I was just wondering and confused that no apparent evidence of performance had been done. Obviously it has. - To your satisfaction.

    One of the reasons I went catamaran is that they are easier to push through the water my boat in original design versions suggested a pair of 9hp outboards... Remember that is 40ft long and 21.5ft wide and designed weight around 3500kg or thereabouts (mine is somewhat heavier but still has good bridge-deck clearance). I was planning to use a pair of Torqeedo 4000R electric outboards. (4000W peak draw at 48V) and further justification was in having an all electric galley and later electric sheet winches. On windless days and space for 13 x 175W PV panels and the 6000W genset I would have more than enough capacity to run on 2/3rds throttle and still trickle into the batteries on genset alone when not cooking I use 400W on refrigeration and the marine electronics I have not measured as that is no longer a concern as propulsion is by saildrive/diesel direct now...

    http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/cheapcat.html - - - This build is quite simple and is sufficient for inshore and sheltered waters - no plans, just the concept is soooo simple - I am tempted to suggest the concept to locals in PNG when I eventually visit. My suggestion would be to redesign to make lots of transverse box-girders by extending most of the bulkheads right across the boat and some in pairs.

    I counted all the overlapping box-girders on my boat that go from outside of each hull and right across and I have 8... It is a very stiff boat with no deflection that I could measure (less than half an inch when diagonal corners are the only load bearing points).

    Yes I read your post and was quite dismayed, Did your email get to the designer? or did some lazy clerk respond? - and did you include the sad story and clearly identify the damaged page ? - some people have no thought for PR and the furtherance of their design reputation. Try again with a good 'sob story' to the designer in person requesting that the damaged page be faxed and confirm the date of payment and such so they are well aware that you are not scamming and would appreciate this minimal level of support. Best of luck...
     
  4. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    If you had 2 x 6 KW brushless motors, you could try this out. I am aware , that you have a catramaran, thus you need actaul 4 motors. You know Masalai, 30 years ago the IBM computer was as powerfull as today a Microchip of 20 gram. So also the brushless motors. One would not think that a motor of 3 to 4 Kg, can produce such torque. If you have a hell of a lott of head wind or just wind, Power in is power out minus the losses. All what you need to do is to have 3 thick electrical cables properly isolated from oxidising. You lower your one side in de water with the screw. The otherside, if you have 500 watts, you will get 500 watts minus the losses in your screw. It would help you in consuming bio-diesel. If you have a storm type of wind, you may have 3 KW (depending whether your Brushless motors are 75 rpm / per Volt), thus pushing you ,maybe at 2,5 KW through te water x 2. NO wind, go and paddle. (or switch your bio-disel engine on) . It was just a thought to throw an idee around.

    Quite a cute concept.
    If I am so stupid to reduce the Hartley28, it will also be a very stiff solid boat. Not very fast, but solid.

    Yes, what can one do. In my view it is a one man selling outlet. The Naval Architect is all long ago dead, I understood. No, I asked him nicely and explained the reason. Also I offered to pay a reasonable amount for the one page material list. I have now taken the list from the Fairline 18 and have checked the thickness of the plywood and beams with the thickness used in the Fisherman 18. It was a lot of work to figure it out, but I think I am close to it. However it would have been nice to have it accurate. I am on the way to Cape Town to get a Visa for my wife, I always bring material back with me. The cost of traveling 1000km up and down, makes it more cost effective. I cannot get French Lloyds approved marine ply here locally, thus when I travel to Cape Town I bring as much back as I can.
    Bert
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  5. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Hi Bert,
    What I learned before building, was that it requires significantly more energy to propel a mono about the same LOA, than a light catamaran. - - As much as I love the Hartley, - (I had an 18 that was a "going-finish" sale in PNG, and it was a lovely and easily worked boat), - It was relatively light, compared to what was available around 1970. - - I have great fondness for many of the Hartley designs.

    If I build again it will probably be something after the style and size of the "The Coastal Passage $21K cat" as a modest-speed power-cat. I will suffer the modest weight penalty to use a "grp-over-ply-design" for budgetary constraints and repair materials availability.

    Nothing stupid in reconfiguration to better meet your needs - - I did that and also paid handsomely for the engineering to retain the designers approval. The stiffeners in longitudinal shelving midships was my own autonomous effort... - - I was only suggesting that a cat may better meet your needs re performance for limited energy. What I was suggesting in my initial post was not the electrical potential but the capacity of the wind to deliver the power to drive your brushless motors - - (being used as generators)
    - ? do not they need some small excitation and power switching to set up the stator or is it the rotor part - I understand the concept but am a little confused with the wiring schematic but that does not matter at this point...

    The essence of my question was the capacity to capture sufficient driving force from the wind... I am using 2 x 20hp diesels and pushing fairly large propellers at around 1200rpm in the water - both running I get 10knots at 3000rpm at the engines producing 14hp continuously rated, with one running the boat speed only decreases to 6 knots and fuel burn is 3L/hour each engine. - - Even 2500W (about 4hp?) additional motive push would hardly register, and if the wind was that strong would be more trouble than it was worth to deploy and control...

    The reason I say this is that of experience - the engines came with a nice pair of 'gori' style 2 blade folding propellers which were not enough when push came to shove in anchoring at South Percy Island in 20+knot winds. - It blew up to better than 40knots in the lee of the island whilst I was at anchor and sheltering... On the 2 blade propellers my max speed was 8.1knots with both engines and that was more than 3600rpm (calm seas and still waters).. - - Whilst running with the seas for Percy Islands I was not quite holding a wave and doing 19knots regularly. - - So the boat is quite easy to push and stable whilst surfing. - good fun but much of the thrill and visual experience was lost in the darkness :D :D I would like to go "surfing" again sometime soon as I feel I may hold a wave now....

    Thanks Bert, I was in the business around 1977 to 80... My toys were various smaller systems like the PDP 1135 for work, and I used to play a lot on all the Z80 and 6502 type cpu's in the 'expensive hobby' field. (8 bit then and some had 16 bit and many used page mode memory addressing capability to look at 512KRAM) and - 'thems were the days' - except I HATED 'cobol' and punch-cards, I was mainly into systems setup, Some smaller CPM and early networking stuff for some progressive businesses, and stuff... and now, with early dementia, not on my agenda. - I use Linux Mint, a UNIX like operating system. and I can re-install the entire package in about 20 minutes including email clients, web browser and full office suite and graphics, video and all the bits and pieces that are needed for the full experience. - - Setting up the printer drivers gets me stuffed sometimes. (that last bit is what friends help me with)...

    The only brushless motors I could find were those for model aircraft or in Germany/Holland and were stupidly expensive in Australia.
     
  6. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Agreed with you, but I cannot easy pull a Cat out of the water and store it at home. That is different with you, you are living on your boat.

    You probably right, but I have the drawings and I was not planning to go way out from the coast.



    Yes, I was also wondering, but there are some high tech Helix type of concepts, which may be worthwhile looking at.
    I tested the combination with a drill and when the "screw" side is loaded, it takes some higher energy from the drill to start turning. But it does turn without help. Thus I was under the impression that it could be a potential concept.

    Well that explains it, maybe this concept may only be able to be used on a windy river with a river boat.

    Indeed surfing is better than peddling!!

    Nothing better than Unix. We imported the ONYX box with the Z8000 great fun and for those days , very powerful . I thought that RMcobol and Acucobol was fun to write complex software in. I love their index files with index key's. No duplications.
    The one's from Czechoslovakia are not too expensive, but I can't get them to respond anymore. Just a correction, I was in the hurry to go to Cape Town. It is 75 revs per Volt and not 75 Volt per rev. Sorry for my hiccup.
    If you swap any of the 3 wires, all what happens, the screw turns the other way.
    This is provided the 3 coils are wound without too much differences from each other. If you want to stop, you just disconnect 2 of any of the 3 wires.
    You want to slow down, I am scratching my head. Maybe turn it out of the wind, which will be difficult for an Helix concept.
    Bert
     
  7. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Thanks for the chat, I have learned stuff... I hope you have also... The "unix-like" OS I now use is Linux Mint (an Irish flavour from the Debian/Ubuntu stream)... Even a dummy like me can install the package in about 20 minutes from a downloaded iso file... Beautiful in its sumplicity and ease of use once a few UNIX protocols are remembered...
     
  8. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Masalai, I went into the hospital on Wednesday and came out yesterday , For two weeks no driving, that is a penalty for me. Sorry for the late response. I will sent you a private mail, as I like to load Linux on a spare laptop I have.

    But I have questions on the ply wood I brought with me.

    1) I bought 2 sheets , Indonesian marine ply wood 9 mm, 4 sheets of BS1088 6mm French OKOUME marine ply wood and 4 sheets of 9mm Lloyds approved French OKOUME ply wood. When will it be an issue that all marine ply is not stamped with “Lloyds approved” Maybe Gonzo is willing to comment.

    2) The designer prescribed nails, I like to use stainless steel screws instead of nails. Any comment?

    3) Although the French marine ply is very light 9 kg for 1,25 meter by 2,5 meter sheets, and its specific weight is about 0,53 thus it will drive on the water. To make a boat, whatever boat I will make, I need to make it sink proof. i.e. if the total weight, crew, batteries, motors, whatever is 1000kg, I need to design 1 m3 of foam somewhere in the hull. What will be the best material to use and where should it be placed.

    4) I like Maranti and have worked a lot with it. I like to use it for the Keelson, packers, stringers, chine’s etc. Any comment on this?

    Bert
     
  9. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    I am not exactly sure what is meant by "marine ply" as here, there does not seem to be a choice of brands (at the ***-end-of-the-world) and with such a small market not many are interested in setting up dealership and so on :eek: :p - As far as I am concerned is means that water-proof glue was used? - Even so I would totally seal it - reinforce it with epoxy/grp and then paint when assembled.

    For my mini-keels everyone said - - "LEAVE IT VOID" - - and I am inclined to agree. . . . as to test its efficacy, drill a small hole to drain any possible water when on the hard and "still-in-doubt" - No water ? good, :D :D plug the hole carefully and continue with a big smile on your face... Fill a void with foam, or what have you? and, you will never know until it is too late :eek: :eek: :p

    I have lots of voids... All good... (although I have not been in doubt yet)... with something like 400gsm to seal the ply both sides you will have a very strong and resilient building material. I have used 1/16"ply in 'fascias' and some shelves that has been sealed similarly - robust and light... The outer skin, bulkheads and key structural pieces are EXACTLY as per the designer specifications... Make sure all wood is sealed and perfectly watertight so NO water can get to the wood...

    I am no expert, just expressing my view and what I had done... I came in a little overweight but that is pleasing to me... I did use screws to hold the glued pieces in place whilst the glue (west system epoxy) cured... AND THEN REMOVED ALL THE SCREWS, carefully sealed the holes where they were afterwards... DO NOT LEAVE ANY SCREWS to screw up the quality of your build...

    My keel pieces are ply - it goes, from the inside GRP, End grain Balsa, GRP - - as prepared in the factory (DuFlex), then Woven glass then glued to ply which had grp cloth each side before assembly then another layer of glass cloth...

    The mini-keels are all grp coated ply (pre done in the shed before cutting) 2 layers at the top (joining mini-keels to hulls) the "aerodynamically shaped sections are the grp covered ply and with several frames to facilitate forming the appropriate shape. The bases of the keels extend up to 3" out to form a bigger "foot-print" and is 3 layers of ply based material... Not light but quite a large volume contained in the voids of the mini-keels...
     
  10. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Thanks Mas, I also thought that marine ply means no patched bad spots with other wood (knots) before slicing, sizing ,cutting up in 1 or 2 mm and gluing together into sheets. You maybe in an ***-end-of-the-world, but a very beautiful one. I love to go there sometimes in my life. In May , will be going to Europe again, maybe my wife can be convinced that it is time for that part of the world on the next overseas trip.
    No, what I like to know is, will a "Lloyds approved" sticker help in anyway to mean something. If I buy in total 30 sheets of "Lloyds approved" ply wood, what will it do for me, other than pay 30% more money?

    Bert
     
  11. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Have you seen this masalai?...twin torqueedos on a 32 cat- 7 knots . hours of run time and could be charged with wind and solar...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJOG15IPDHQ
     
  12. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    torqueedo motors and a cat design

    Ahoy Bert!! been a while--glad to see your still plugging away...

    you need to see this as well- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBoNSPZYBo&feature=channel&list=UL

    why not build a small cat?..i also think you should build what you dream of regardless...but its worth looking into--i had to make some serious compromises in my build...the tugboat is now 24 ft.(instead of 45- then 27.5. then 25...

    it will be steam powered.
    and i lay the keel in two weeks--but dont have the slightest idea of materials to use because my lower back is finished...however i will be using either
    FAL, Corecell, or if im absolutely backed into a corner--wood epoxy--but only as a last resort since i dislike wood as a building material...

    whats the status on your project?
    the following pics are of my 24 ft design except the tug/barge which is the 25 ft'er i cant do in steel now.....

    Doug
     

    Attached Files:

  13. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Hi Tugboat,
    I agree the Torqeedo is an excellent product but at that time batteries were an issue and possibly still are for a 40ft permanent live aboard boat as mine is designed to be. The weight of my boat would also limit the powered (by Torqeedo) performance, as there is only so much a 9hp equivalent drive can deliver. Maybe 4 x 4000R Torqeedo's might work if battery technology becomes far more robust and price competitive. Also the cable runs caused me grief as I had the batteries (large AGM's) forward of the original-design mast position...

    Go, tugboat go..... :D :D ! ! !
     
  14. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    yea thats always the case- batteries cannot store the energy that diesel coal or wood can...someday we will have batts that can last a month without a recharge and can be charged in a day..or something like that...
    till then--its back to carbon. but i love that cat in the vid. id almost consider one...almost...
    any pics of that boat your doing??

    sorry Burt just chit chatting here--will cease and desist the cross talk..:)
     

  15. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Hi Tugboat, and possibly also relevent to the options for Bert...
    Why not build the 21K plywood "cheapie"... No plans- use the photographs and build it.... as the basics are all there. Here is the link to the story http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/cheapcat.html

    - Here http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/ is the regular electronic magazine from and about matters Queensland boating (read online or download the enhanced PDF version - I use the latter and can then open and read any or all even off-line whilst at sea).

    Poorest in physical assets, or cash income, or just a "kanjuice marawardi" like me? An Indian slang term meaning one who would make the proverbial "tight as a fishes ***", "Jew", or, "Scotsman" look like a spendthrift sieve?
     
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