diagonal planking

and thats exactly what Im talking about
Spounce has set the bar and I say every set of drawings should look exactly like it
I was privileged to get a peak at the prints once and they are a work of art in themselves

I have every intention of doing my best and if by some chance I can aspire to an equal achievement then I would call the job well done
that is why I want to do my own prints
the artistry I can handle
its the engineering I am not familiar with
at least not naval engineering



thing came out three times the size I drew it

another practice run for a set of prints
rear elevation deck area
needed some wild life in it

 

Yahh, you´re right mate, and all of our grandfathers did have this knowledge!
Building a seagoing vessel is first related to the "ART" of making a ship. Experience and knowledge has to follow then. Profit was not part of the design table.

Bombigher was one of the last, I think, who did just what he felt to be good, and calculated later if it was to the rules. Today the first question to be answered is the "shareholder value" then it might be of some interest if the sampan is able to float right side up. If a design can provide a feasible turnover, it might provide a feasible turn over as well, who cares. And the risk of being catched is a low one, 95% of the boats are not more than floating allotment garden homes. And another 4% hardly see any sea condition through their whole life. So, what is it worth to design, build and handcraft a piece of art, if the average ***** is using it as a barbeque platform?
R
R

 

Apex be not paranoiac, keep your head cool, I wasn't talking about any one in particular and surely not of you as I do not know you or even what you design if you design.

It was a very general statement as I had in mind some internet sites that leave me open mouth. As good christian I won't give names.
After being naval carpenter, loftman, navy officer and naval engineer I have now a small idea about boats, maybe I'm beginning to understand what's a boat. I even hope to have a zen illumination to grab the concept of boat in its totality and I meditate very hard on that two hours a day. So I got enough education to have cartesian opinions.

I'm not yacht designer, I have no plans to sell, not customers to find or convince, so I feel free to say what I think, and to share my small knowledge.

As my own customers are totally out of the field of this forum and are personal acquaintances, there is not competition.

PS I dislike the Bombigher's pastiches of schooners...I have his book (in French) about the Schpountz published by Loisirs Nautiques. A sure fact:his boats are horribly expensive to build.

 

Daniel Bombigher was a fine artist, but his drawings, paintings, and books, should just stay art to be appreciated for what they are. His boats are filled with questionable structural details and very outdated ideas on hydrodynamics. For instance almost all his external long keels are flat sided (poor hydrodynamic shape) and too thin to be good structure when the boat goes ashore (twisting loads).

I understand that, working alone, he spent years on a single design. That's great, it's nice not to have to make a living. He also did not concern himself with making the boats straightforward to build or accommodating of their owner's needs. But it takes all kinds....boat design is a diverse field, that's what keeps it interesting.

 

Ilan I am cool. Where did I harm you?

 

Apex, nothing just teasing, but your questionning messages were a bit dry (example "Or was that not addressed to me?"). I like the martini dry, very dry with a good spanish olive but I prefer the messages a bit more "rhetorical".

Tad, I'm very glad to hear from you. Yes Mr Bombigher was an artist, not my kind, but with some artistic sense. I have made short trips on a Schpountz 40 and a bigger one about 60 feet (Sitting Bull? I do not remember) and I've been very far from impressed.

Not specially comfortable (if a boat has to be heavy and slow, at least it must be very comfortable), and had nothing remarkable.
I agree totally with you about hydrodynamics and engineering flaws added to an indecent cost of building (and pretty high NA fees, for those who dislike to pay fees to a NA). When working at the Arsenal de Cherbourg, I saw the kits of the Schpountz 40 nicely made by the CNM (a contractor for the French Navy) but I scratched my head in front of such complexity and quantity of materials for a 40 feet sail boat.

The boats looked as pastiches, like a WV Beetle disguised in 1930 roadster by the magics of a polyester kit.

Do not believe I despise classic boats. Some were horrors like the RORC boats, some are very pleasant and well mannered as the boats designed by late Francois Sergent, a gentleman and very able man. Great specialist of cold molded wood with a solid background of engineering.

So his boats had the best of two worlds; nice construction very well engineered, beautifully done plans with a nice design without "tape a l'oeil" (big mouth, flashy) but a true equilibrium of the lines. At sailing his boats are rational, comfortable, and pretty fast. Very easy to handle, good everywhere.

So I have the greatest respect for NA like Sergent, Amiel, Herbulot, Mauric, Van de Stadt, Newick, and many other. They share all a solid technical background (for example Mauric was a mathematician able to explain the tensors theory of Levi-Civita and their application in the General Relativity...every one who has sailed on the 1978 Kriter V stayed open mouth on the performances and ocean going capabilities of this boat...it was "the" step for the nowadays 60 feet, but the multihulls proved they were faster) at least as self educated engineer (I respect highly the self educated, they worked twice harder), with the artistic spark that transforms a boxy thing to a beautiful object.

Nigel Irens is also included in the group of NA I admire. Very versatile, and beautiful and very efficient designs.

We are in 2009, I'm not a nostalgic, nor a dreamer of a golden era (golden only for a few riches), so let's go for nice boats of our time without the horrors of the design dictated by "Fashion Design" (you know the melted wax designs with useless narrow black triangular windows, and so overlong bows that they look just copied from a Tex Avery Cartoon).

I'm very inferred in the concept that the function creates the shape; all the beauty of a Sukhoy 27 comes from lines born from aerodynamic and construction contingencies, nothing is due to any fashion design.

 

ya but the prints look dam good

LOL

I never sailed it just a peak at the prints and last time I even was near the ocean I got slapped by a sneaker wave while standing in a tide pool
Oregon coast
dam cold water
I went from standing in ankle deep to being up to my chin before I could even think of rock hopping back to dryness
girl laughed her *** off at me


your mention of design vs construction is exactly what I lack in
I can build anything but know little about naval engineering
thing is Ive seen what most architects are like to work with and it's one part of my job I wont miss. so if naval architects are anything similar
I just assume hang out here in my spare time and learn how to just do it myself then have someone check it once the basic design elements are established

best
B

 

Boston, is the chipmonk gathering fuel for your boat?

 

nah I just erased him
I get tired of looking at my own artwork and take stuff down and put stuff up almost every day
got a room full of pencil sketch's and frames
but hey
if they can train dolphins to go get stuff for a treat
maybe I can train a few squirrels

actually my cousin owns a tree trimming service and he's got more wood chips than he will ever know what to do with
uses em for mulch and has about a hundred tons of the stuff at the moment

 

Well there is the perfect oportunity for you do do some landscaping for the wealty mate, go for it!

 

Boston,

If you want to learn more on the technical side of Naval Architecture of small boats:
You have a lot of books, a lot very old and obsolete. But with a limited budget I'll go to three books:

1/ Pierre Gutelle The design of sailing yachts. Gives an excellent panorama, good theory part and a lot of practical calculations for sail boats old and modern.
After that you'll look to some plans with another eye (a very critical one...)
Just secondary school maths level needed.

2/ David Gerr The nature of boats. A big bunch of info, gives also a good basis to judge plans.

3/ David Gerr Boat strenght. Very useful. You won't become a structural engineer with this book, but you'll be able to do good work and to judge some scatlings with a fresh eye.

For those interested by motor boats; an excellent and didactic article by Tad : http://www.tadroberts.ca/about/pdf/power-boat-design-form-and-function.pdf.

 

there was one suggested earlier called "elements of yacht design" that sounded great
and there have been a few others
Ive got several victorian porches lined up and am looking at another tomorrow what is up with that
last year I had two spiral stair cases in a row and then another at the end of the season
am I the porch man this year or what
anyway
thanks for the tips
Ill definitely look for them

next thread I may start might be a discussion about propeller tunnels in hulls and if they add so much surface area to offset the gains in draft and shroud effects on the prop
Ive seen several and it looks like a lot of wetted surface area

 

SOME PHOTOS

 

as I go through the process of considering various building techniques I am gradually coming to the conclusion that your suggestion is the most practical approach
thing is I want at least some of the charm of an internal frame
and am struggling to find the right balance of old school building techniques and new school performance

I suppose the question is
how few bulk heads can a 60 wooden build have
60' 13' beam ~4' draft aprox 20 ton displacement
I suppose it would be partly dependent on the stringer dimensions or vice verse but whats the requirements on bulkheads for a vessel of this size

 

I lived in Denver in 65 n 66. Great place too.
As I read your post on the 60' boat, I am wondering where you gonna put it in the water?
The south Platte is only a few inches deep and hardly any of it is straight for 60' or so.