Design, shape and what now:)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by necropost, Mar 24, 2018.

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  1. necropost
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    necropost Junior Member

    Dear forum users, it is my first post so I would like to invite myself, my name is Oscar and I just join the forum. Professionally sailing and now looking for way to develop the pleasure boat hobby to semi proffesional way.

    I have done some hull shapes in free ship, rhino and in max surf recently. Some calculations as well however the hull in maxsurf modeler is done for the ketch racing/sporty cabin sailboat I am looking for some tips how to go further more to add the mast and develop the rigging project and calculate the vpp and forces. I know it is possible in maxsurf however can I get the tip how to move forward?

    Another question is the drawing/design from free ship. I believe the drawing is complete however I cannot get the way for developping into my drawing proper way for having the scale mesh with measurement what will be essential for the further plans in casw of building.

    And the last question to advanced users- once your design project in cad software is done how or what you are using for preparing the appropriate paper plans for building and to get some parts like bulkheads etc properly measured and converted to dxf for cnc cutting for instance?

    Will be highly appreciate for the comments or if somebody will be able for cooperation in order to help with completion of project I will be very thankfull.

    Best regards
    Necro:)
     
  2. pafurijaz
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    pafurijaz Senior Member

    Hi, I can answer you but with that little experience I have gained, I can tell you that if you use FreeShip, you can export the model to IGES, but not all programs can open the format generated by FreeShip .. I use gCAD3D and save in IGES, to open it with other programs. Freeship develops the pieces but you have to move the separate parts with the edge creases in a different layer, only so you can have the pieces separated correctly. I model the hulls recently, and I use an inappropriate software, Blender but I can make precise models to export to FreeShip, and I can also generate drawings to be quoted in CAD programs, but I repeat it is not the most suitable program and I think I'm the only one to use it this way..
     
  3. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    My experience is that AutoCAD is one of the best programs to accurately draw planes in the traditional way and then print them on paper.
    I work with Maxsurf but, the drawingss, construction details, parts lists, etc. I draw them with AutoCAD.
     
  4. necropost
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    necropost Junior Member

    Thank you very much dor the messages above , I have presently maxsurf and rhino so I would like to be sticked with those. Model is drawn however the process to attaching the mast and setting the sails area if can be explained to me I will be very appreciate.

    Another matter is how now from the model extract the lines etc to create the lines plan or nesting for cnc cutting if from plywood etc.

    Thank you in advance for all answers.
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Only with those two programs, it will not be easy to do what you want. At least you should have WorkShopPro, the Bentley module specific for the development of construction plans of the structure.
     
  6. necropost
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    necropost Junior Member

    Ok thank you very much bentley workshop pro hmmmm might cost fortune or already costs?:) ok so maybe I will try to use something else to produce the building plans you suggest the auto cad only from extracted layers for the bulkheads etc from other software right?

    What about the fittingnthe model with mast and to pre-defining the sails area in order of project aero etc calculations?

    Best regards
     
  7. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    What is the shape of the boat and how is it to be built? What parts of the boat or building jig will be CNC cut from plywood?

    How much experience with CAD do you have? How have you learned Rhino and MaxSurf?

    If you have a 3D hull shape in Rhino a set of lines can be very easily obtained using the Contour command. There are several ways to convert the resulting curves into a lines drawing. Shapes of bulkheads and similar depend on the boat construction. In general you will need to create an inner surface and then use that surface to obtain the edges of the bulkheads.
     
  8. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    @necropost, I have developed a software to produce building plans with AutoCAD. You can try it, if you wish, but I could also develop the plans for you.
     
  9. necropost
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    necropost Junior Member

    DCockey. Thank tou for your good answer, I will try this way. Regarding the experience with rhino and maxsurf not really hogh in commparison to forum users but I am learning quickly and some of the theoretical matters I understand after my service done on supertankers (principals are same:). I will try to use those feature and will revert withthe results.
    Regarding CNC still I am thinking if it will be sandwich method so the airex sheets will be cut same like a plywood and coated once assembled on the bulkheads or the plywood however it is no matter because even for fabricating the mold if the composite hull will be selected the bulkheads and some shell parts neet to be cutted.

    Tansl I will try with pleasure to use those software - will contact you by PM - unfortunatelly cannot:) maybe because I am newbie here. May I ask you for the PM as I am unable to send those? Thank you in advance.

    Best regards
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    How have you "designed" a hull form that will satisfy your SOR? What specific hull shape attributes have you rendered to reflect your masses calculations? My point is these programs are great at generating images that look much like a boat, but they'll only generate what you've asked, not necessarily what you may need for your SOR. In short, how do you know the hull form you've drawn, is well suited to your requirements?
     
  11. necropost
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    necropost Junior Member

    Hi PAR
    Good point from your side but as your question could be tricky my answer will be the same. As you as designer know that many of calcs and good ideas in solid objects in fluid mechanic calcs are just the estimations in the same way we can find our requirements with the boat. I got some criteria after observations , practice and experience with my present boat and tried to fit it in one. Additionally it was kind of challenge for me ( and actually is) to compare the theory and practice to use it in creation and I found it addictive. Generally what I meant to say is I trid to combine all the criterias I been looking for in something I will create by my own. If it will fit? Will see I am trying to do my best that is why I am here however all the vessels in the world - no one of them is perfect and even the best conceptional/theoretical design in reality can be a real disaster.

    Best regards
    Ps.
    How I know? So far hull itself seems to be ok taking into account the parameters L/B static stability etc however that is why I am asking also for the tip how to add the masts and the rigging and sails to maxsurf to complete the calculations related to static weight given by mast and dynamic how the weight will distribute when the sail will move to different dorections etc. If I can set this parameters and eventually correct them than I can answer you.
     
  12. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I do not think it's possible to do all that with Maxsurf
     
  13. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Without a reasonable understanding of why we make the hull form decisions we do, based on the goals we're attempting to achieve, you're not yet ready to attempt an homogenized approuch to any yacht design. Blending one design's attributes with one or several others will not help much. You just end up with likely much worse than the seemingly homogenized rendition.

    Start with a solid, well defined SOR and work around the design spiral until the goals are met or as closely as practical. You'll have to make concessions here and there, but this is part of the process, which will again be defined by priorities in the SOR. An all out race boat is the easiest, simply because the SOR priorities limit most things to speed, maneuverability, etc., even some elements of safety, just to get the best/fastest end result. As the SOR gets more convoluted with desires and wants, your choices become equally so, forcing you to make decisions that might be a determent to speed (as an example), though more practical as a cruiser (again, as an example).

    Maybe lets start with what are you trying to do. What is this boat, what's its general performance envelop, general use, etc.? This generally governs the basics, before you place a single line in a drawing program. This will likely cover it's general weight range, which will govern how much it'll need to support (volume), which can dramatically help the hull form in general and the attributes in particular. You've mentioned a ketch and a sporty cabin, racer sort of thing. Well pick one as both aren't very likely. It's one thing to have an aesthetically racy looking cabin, but placed on an appropriately accommodating, ketch optimized, sailing hull, but a different matter for a racing ketch, burdened with a stylized cabin, burdened hull form to carry the extra tankage, windage and other things associated with a harbor queen (not to suggest this is what you want). Clean, precise decisions that can be addressed as precisely as practical, is the only way to do this. Anything less is a hunt and peck method and not particularly conducive to a good result.
     
  14. necropost
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    necropost Junior Member

    Par with highest respect I totally agree with you about the ethic of design approach however as I said it is so far boat for me and my family so I cannot deny that only 3-4 pieces will be done, however please do not suspect me of blending designs I just told you some criterias which been forcing me to start sketching and at this stage I would like to complete it just to check how far it meets my expectations. Very nice explanationnfrom your side about respective and ethical way of approach but believe me during last decade I spent 74 months at sea so I believe I understand a bit. The thing is the project is expected to have sporty designs and some sporty properties during sailing - does not have to be super racer or super luxury comfortable- must be as I want it to be. The things about the weight etc the volume approach etc I totally agree however it is a proportional matter and can be Adjusted more easily than from building the project from beginning. By the way we are talking about the theoretical matters but the questions been asked are still open and I do not want to go far away of them so can I ask for the answer?

    Tansl so what do you recommend?

    Best regards
     

  15. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Well, in relation to the mast and rigging, there are procedures to calculate it, the loads on the mast and on the stays and, therefore, those that are transmitted to the hull.
     
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