Design Challenge: Trapwing-"on-deck" ballast-12'-22'

You didnt get what I was meaning, the full out to windward weight (not full out) speed needs to be faster than what you are predicting

 

Please post a video of the real thing, or even a full scale mock up of this magical mechanism...

 

Doug, how can you extrapolate the ballast movement on a tiny model to the reality of a full sized boat?
And for those few sensitive, PC souls here who disagree with the based on reality brutality of questioning here ..... we actually mean well.

 

He's not. He is using an incomplete calculation by one of your buddies from an upside-down country.

Of course he couldn't do the calcs himself, so he keeps posting someone else's work as if he figured it out. It never crosses his mind that some things that exist in the real world might not be included in the work that the other person did.

 

==============
Thats not the case-I set the speed and load the system had to work with and Rick W explored if that was possible. And it is possible at almost twice the speed and half the time I chose as the minimum. This has absolutely nothing to do with the model of the Prototype. However, over 10 years of RC model testing has proven the basic premise of the system in terms of sailor control of movable ballast and the basic mechanical functioning of the system. Again, you should read the thread sometime-might answer questions like this!
An important note: the RC model testing of the Trapwing tested different hulls including a multihull.
The mechanical system and control system were evaluated because those results translate almost directly to full size practice.
The prototype will be exhaustively tested to prove the viability of the system and to assure its safety, ruggedness and reliability.

 

Problem is, Doug... Rick gave you the blue sky response you sought because of the limited scope you provided. I've already asked you if Rick was asked to provide a failure reality based on the typical maintenance procedures that sailors utilize for non-racing craft. You failed to address that problem as a functional consideration in the design.

Failure of this tricky mechanism is very likely to drown a disabled sailor. I guess that blue sky possibilities are more important to you than is the danger being imposed by an overly complex set of design solutions.

Again, if you answered the pertinent questions being posed, then folks wouldn't have to keep asking them.

QUESTIONS ALREADY ASKED, BUT NEVER ANSWERED:

You've been asked about:
1. predicted failure rates of the mechanisms involved
2. who engineered the wing for structural soundness while it slams from side to side and slides fore and aft
3. who can launch this boat when they are sitting in a wheelchair
4. what kind of escape plan is in place for a disabled sailor should the boat crash at the speeds you suggest

5. and on and on.... still unanswered.

Reading the thread again won't get us any closer to the answers to those questions than we are today.

What do you say you answer these questions for a start and we can openly evaluate the responses?

 

What Rick provided was a power consumption study based on incomplete information. It had nothing to do with proving whether or not the ballast shift could be done in a particular time frame, only what the power consumption could be if it was done in that time frame.

Even in that limited capaciity the calculation is pretty useless, since it omits perhaps the most important factor from the calculation.

As far as I have seen, every single person who has ever tried to help The Lord of Non-Foiling in his endeavors has always had their intent twisted to fit his needs, to the extent some people have asked him to stop associating their name with his crackpot ideas. Of course he does not comply to their wishes.

 

============================
You don't know what you're talking about.......

 

Once cloying and now bereft

 

A Summary for those who don't want to read the whole thread:

In the course of this thread and a couple of others various incarnations of this concept were considered. The final "incarnation" came down to the Trapwing 15 for which you can find sketches and numbers earlier in this thread. Due to some fortuitous events I was able to get my original 16' foiler hull back and then made the decision to go with it as the prototype for developing this project. The 15 remains the ideal version of the planing version of this concept(so far) and will likely be built after the Prototype is thoroughly tested and explored. The Prototype hull based on the 16 is a bit narrower than ideal but it is an all carbon hull and ideal for a relatively quick conversion to a sailing prototype. So, that's whats next-sooner or later and here are more details that reflect the modifications to the topsides and bow that change the 16 into the Trapwing Prototype. The prototype is shown with weight and sail area ranges that reflect the potential capability of the modified hull as well as the tests that need to be made. The suitability of the concept to disabled sailing will be determined by sailors involved in disabled sailing. Engineering, as required, will be done by a Naval Architect and Marine Engineer with electronics expertise as required. Performance testing will be exhaustive with help from one of the top marine testing laboratories in the US.
===========
The following is a detailed look at the characteristics of the new Prototype, as well as the design elements it will encompass and test:
-----
Trapwing Prototype:
LOA 17' 8"
Beam hull-3.25' overall 12'(subject to testing)
Weight- hull 155lb
ballast-wing 80-180lb(variable and subject to testing)
keel 0-80(subject to testing)
SA-upwind 100-180sq.ft. variable
downwind 200-360sq.ft. (variable and subject to testing)
crew-singlehanded-120lb-220lb (variable and equalized under class rules-
subject to testing)
crew position for racing on the centerline inside boat, fixed
athwhartships, variable fore and aft
--------------------
1) Sail area to be between 100 and 180 sq.ft
a-different rigs
b-different amounts of ballast
--
2) Ballast wing to be supported by trapeze wires and unique retention system that allows wing and ballast to slide simultaneously, allows athwhartship pivoting and fore and aft movement.
a-version one will use two aluminum tubes with sliding external tray- the tubes and tray move simultaneously:
-attachment system allows wing- with weight centered-to be levered up and then pivoted from a position 90 degrees to the CL to a position parallel to the centerline for transport and stowage.
-weight can be added or removed in small increments.
-fore and aft pivot/sliding tube is mounted to the boat slightly offset from the CL to allow room to retract board/keel.
-aluminum tubes terminate at outboard ends in buoyancy pods-pods will be changeable as determined in testing.
-sliding ballast tray and structural design of wing to be capable of 180lb max ballast @9' from CL; ballast completely adjustable in the range of 80 to 180lb.
b-version two is a slightly curved(athwhartship), molded and sealed(with sealable access to ballast tray) wing with an internal sliding ballast tray. This version will be the final version and incorporates all the features of version one with significantly increased sealed buoyancy.
c-Wing movement by manual or electric means. Minimum electrical movement full out to full out:4.5 sec. Minimum electrical "stamina" on single battery-12 hours at a rate equivalent to a approximately 60 (full track)tacks per hour. Manual back-up.
--
3) Crew Position
a-version one-racing position-allows crew to sit in an extremely comfortable seat that is fixed athwhartship and slides fore and aft adjustably while sailing.
-extremely wide crew weight range:for racing lower tray attached to seat may contain ballast used to equalize crew weight in the range of 120 to 220 lb.
-seat may be moved manually or electrically.
b-version two-center seat is removed and two fixed carbon seats with backrests are "plugged-in" to each side deck.
--
4) Rigs to be tested are main and jib, main alone, with and without an asymetrical spinnaker.
a-asymetrical will be tested as permanently mounted off a bowsprit(a la Weta tri) or retracted into a trough with roller(a la Viper) and a retractable pole.
b-mast to be sealed with masthead floatation in an endplate configuration. Some buoyancy possible in head of sail.
--
5)-Daggerboard/ keel/rudder
a -boat will be tested with and without a retractable "lifting keel"
which would essentially be a carbon daggerboard with the minimum ballast required(determined in testing) to right the boat from a pitchpole(where the wing buoyancy may not significantly help).
b-self-righting from a knockdown or pitchpole is a required design element for any version of the boat used for disabled sailing.

c-a turbo version of the boat will not use a ballasted keel and may not be suitable for disabled sailing but this will be determined in testing.
d- the daggerboard may include as standard a lifting hydrofoil designed to provide "foil-assist" to reduce wetted surface and in conjunction with the rudder hydrofoil improve the pitch and planing characteristics of the
boat.
e-a fully flying hydrofoil system will be tested as will a fully flying system that allows the boat to fly downwind only(requiring less upwind SA and less ballast).
f-rudder will be retractable with a t-foil.
--
6)-On the Beach
a-the boat will be able to be easily beach sailed with a dolly incorporated into the trailer design to make it very simple to go from trailer to water. A "power assist" dolly may be available. Disabled sailors/coach(s) will assist in the design of systems to allow launching and use of the boat with the minimum outside assistance possible.
--
7)-Performance
a- the goal is to develop a high performance planing sailboat that can be safely sailed from a center crew position by disabled or able-bodied sailors. I am hoping to be able to achieve an SCP/total weight of 30% or slightly better though that is just a target and a less powerful version with numbers and performance more like a Windmill or Tasar may be perfectly acceptable. The use of foil-assist technology will help to achieve the performance goals. Full flying foiling is possible in a selfrighting boat-particularly one with the righting assist this boat has from version two of THE Wing.
-------
The concept has extraordinary potential and it will be a blast finding out just what she'll do.

-------------------------
Click on the Trapwing Prototype image and then click on the subsequent image:

 

Nice waste of bandwidth.

 

Posting the exact same nonsense 10 posts after the last time it was posted doesn't make it any more real.

Note the Lord of Non-Foiling has now deleted the earlier post. It was #199 in this thread, now it is gone.

Another waste of bandwidth.

 

Doug, it is all fantasy and your repeating in bold fonts all the tricky problems your mind has purportedly found solutions to/murkily sorted/dreamed/hoped - is not going to make any difference ... until you build the bloody thing. This boat is extreme; it is an extremist, complicated boat, and I like extremist craft ... but with one important condition ... they have to work - and in this case, a boat for disabled people has to be foolproof/screwed up design proof. So build the damn thing .... and you'll learn more from hands on stuff than all your thousands of hours dreaming on your back in bed or in the bath or sitting in front of a computer. Finish this thread - we don't want to hear anymore about the fargo trucking thing .... until that is, you have a full sized, I can touch it creation .... and can post some on water images with feedback from your brave, disabled, guinea pig.

 

====================
Thanks for your comments, Gary. You're free to leave the thread at any time....

 

Gary, you are a funny man. You know, as well as every other sane person who reads this thread, this monstrosity will never be built.

The Lord of Non-Foiling can't design the mechanisms or even make drawings to work out the kinematics.

This idea will be set aside soon so he can chase some other crazed idea, just as he has been doing on and on for 8+ years on internet forums. The next idea will be just as wacky and will be abandoned at some point to chase the next "revolutionary" idea.