cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes, enjoy while you can.

    In Europe there are too many people, too many boats.

    Even huge marinas like les Minimes (+3000 places) have big waiting lists.

    On other side, Europe is a fantastic place to cruise. There are incredible old ports, century old places with incredible ambiances that are a pleasure to explore. A big motorcat is just not the right boat to do that, or to own here, unless you are rich. :p

    But I agree with you that a big motorcat is probably the most adequate motorboat to circumnavigate, or to voyage extensively.;)
     

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  2. hiracer
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    hiracer Senior Member

    You are talking to the wrong guy. I'm the owner of a five-year old steel sailboat. I let somebody else take the hit on deprecitation.

    I never said that the Nordic Tug was a good value. Just a good boat. I recognize the difference. Besides, you can find used Nordics at a better value, especially the smaller ones because they are out of favor right now, just like steel sailboats . . . .

    And trust me about the darker hull. They look good.

    * * *

    BTY, last night I read a book by a retire geology professor at a prominent U.S. school stating that world oil production peaked last December 2005 and has now started decreasing--demand notwithstanding.

    http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-View-Hubberts-Peak/dp/glances=books/0809029561

    Thought you motor guys might want to know.

     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "BTY, last night I read a book by a retire geology professor at a prominent U.S. school stating that world oil production peaked last December 2005 and has now started decreasing--demand notwithstanding."

    Hope he lives for another 400 years , to see how WRONG he is.

    FAST FRED
     
  4. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Finite supply

    Hi Fred. One never knows about that. One thing is for sure, there is a finite supply of oil in the earth. Once the OPEC countries run out of it, all that's left is sand and there's not a great demand for that product. Could be the professor has a little bit more knowledge on the supply than we do. I'm all for biodiesel that I can make in the garage, but we've gone around on that subject before.
     
  5. Kaa
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    Kaa Wanderer

    Depends on the kind of sand :) Once the price of oil stabilizes above a certain threshold (about $40-50/barrel, IIRC) it becomes economical to get oil out of tar sands and oil shale. And North America has a LOT of oil shale...

    Kaa
     
  6. hiracer
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    hiracer Senior Member

    The book I referenced above states that is not so. The only viable replacement for oil are coal and nuclear and, of course, those two don't work too well for most transportation purposes, which is now accounts for about 75% of all oil use in the U.S., IRRC.

    If I understand correctly oil shale, after it has been retorted (cooked to release the oil from the shale), results in a carbonized byproduct that is 20% greater in volume than the original shale. So, the issue become an environmental one of where to put the byproduct--as it doesn't fit back from where it came. In the best of oil shale, there is a small fraction of oil in every ton of shale. So, the problem is not a minor one, as we are talking about a massive amount of oil shale at today's level of oil use.

    In otherwords, just as in the case of nuclear, the environmental costs and public opposition will be the problem regarding the viability of oil shale. We have in the U.S. enough oil shale to meet U.S. demand for a couple hundred years. It's the mess that it will make that stops everybody.

    To give you an idea of the severity of the problem, at today's prices the value of oil in each ton of shale is MANY times greater than the value of gold in each ton of mined rock. Yet, they haven't been able to make oil shale commercially viable. Meanwhile, gold has been steadily produced.

    Look at it this way, U.S. oil distribution facilities (pipes, pumps, and ships) and refinery have been at 100% capacity for decades. Yet, you don't see oil companies pushing Congress for subsidies or changes in laws to facilitate an increase in capacity. In fact, just the opposite. Congress has created tax subsidies and the oil businesses have not used them. Why do you think oil businesses are not pushing to increase distribution and refinery capacities? Maybe they know it's not gonna be used. I mean, Exxon, et al, really do know the oil business like nobody else. Watch what they do and ignore the rhetoric. Watch the money they invest. Where is it going?

    I got the book from the library, so my read was free. Even if it's not at your liabrary, it's a small, inexpensive book. There is no harming in reading the thing. As you can see on Amazon, it has received high ratings from readers, and the author's first book was also well received. World oil supplies are sufficiently important that I really cannot advise a head-in-the-sand approach. Pun??
     
  7. hiracer
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    hiracer Senior Member

    One last thing and then I had better be quiet again--stop hijacking Vega's thread. (Sorry Vega, but I do think this is relevent to your motor/sail issue.)

    First, this author claims that world oil production has been essentially flat since 1998, until last winter when it started decreasing. Anybody got an authority that this assessment is not true--the part about essentially flat production since 1998?

    Second, he states that, on a per capital basis, world oil production peaked in 1979 (or was that in 1985--something like that--a while ago). Anybody know if that is false?

    These trend lines don't look good, especially given the current industrialization of China, India, and large segments of the third world.

    I'm an investor, and I am taking this information very seriously because I make it my habit to try to see around corners. The hair on the back of my investment neck is starting to stand up after digesting this book.
     
  8. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hiracer, even if the actual oil production could be maintained, the heavy and quick industrialization of huge countries like China or India, will create more demand than the offer. I think that everybody know that the times of cheap energy are gone for good. From now on, fuel will always be on the rise, at least till the moment an economical alternative can be found. That can only be a high tech alternative and that means probably 25 years of development, till it matches the actual price of fuel.
     
  9. hiracer
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    hiracer Senior Member

    I disagree.

    It's one thing to have supply not keep up with demand. That leads to price hikes. I just make/save more money and everything is alright. Oil goes to the highest bidder, which is me.

    But it's an altogether different thing to have supply go down as demand rockets up. That leads to shortages. I may not be able to fix shortages with money.

    I don't think anybody is thinking about rationing. That's the blindside here.

    And to be clear, rationing is not a word found in the book. That's my word. That's my investor intuition coming out, looking around the corner, trying to firgure out what's up.
     
  10. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    The third boat was not chosen by me, but by my wife. It is a Menorquin 120

    She didn’t choose this one surfing the net or in boat shows. She fell in love with this one when seeing it on the sea and at the same coves in which we lay at anchor.

    I have always assumed it was an expensive boat, till the moment my wife dragged me to a boat show stand, last year, in Düsseldorf. As I expected the boat was very well finished and with a good interior, and the price was a surprise. It costs 315 000 euros and this price puts it inside the budget. This is the only motorboat that I would like to own that comes inside of that budget and it pisses me off :mad: that my wife has chosen this one without hesitation while I was unable to find any cruising boat I would like to own that fits that budget:rolleyes: .

    Of course that also means that 40ft quality cruising motorboats are almost impossible to find for 350 000 euros. For example, another one that I like (with economical small engines) is the Andreyale 40 (120) but it costs 665 500 euros. With a price like that the economical engines are quite irrelevant.:D

    http://www.tofinou.com/en/andreyale12.php

    The Menorquin is another story; it is a seaworthy boat with 11.3T of displacement and with two 240hp Yanmar. It has a cruising speed of about 16 k. and a max speed a little bit over 20k. At cruising speed they say it wastes only 1.5 L/mile and that seems too good to be true. It carries 650 L of water and has autonomy of about 650 miles.:)

    This one is a true cruising boat. The only draw back is a slightly small galley, if compared with the one of a sailboat of the same length, but anyway bigger than most of the motorboats of that size.

    Yes, my wife is right; this is the one that I will pick, if I decide for a motorboat.



    Next, I will see what quality cruising sailboats I can find with 350 000 euros, I mean the ones I really like as much as this one.;)


    http://www.menorquin.com/en/my120.php?c=4

    http://www.menorquin-croatia.com/m120.htm
     

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  11. Crag Cay
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    Crag Cay Senior Member

    Some men have all the luck!
     
  12. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    Are you sure you are not confusing the price of the andreyale 40 and 50 ?

    ALso another rangeboat / andreyale 40 clone : http://www.cnsco-silure.com/Francais/Mer/LovStar40/Lovstar_40.htm
    This one claimed CE category B here : http://users.skynet.be/p.balta/lovstar.html

    At 16 kts, the rangeboat is given at 1.2L/nm ( from the curve in N Irens paper). So, I fear the menorquin figures you got are strange for a boat more than twice heavier.
     
  13. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Nimbus 42. Fast. Safe. Under 350,000 euros
    I had a link and awhole lot more info - sorry - I left it at home...
     
  14. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    G'day fcfc, power to weight, and of course waterline length, that's what it's all about.

    Love that lovstar 40, classic lines.

    Now if only they could join 2 together!!! Only kidding

    Don't think Vega will like it though, being strip plank, i'd suggest it's a custom not production boat?

    Dave
     

  15. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Unable to read French, I coudn't see a reference, but the Lovestar 40 looks remarkably like Nigel Iren's Rangeboat to me
     
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