could "the numbers work" for Russian Hydrofoils in SF Bay commutes?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Squidly-Diddly, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    http://rbth.com/science_and_tech/20...l_ship_may_revive_russian_shipping_28809.html

    60kts, 400liters per hour, 120 passengers.

    Tech Boom is booming and commutes and real estate/rental prices are mirroring it with 3-4 hour long "rush hour".

    Communter Train (BART) costs over $12 one way from SFO to Baypoint (my current neighborhood).

    They are building extensions to further bedroom communities but still years away.

    Doesn't seem like it would be TOO hard to dock these things on a barge or derelict.

    Wouldn't need to be permanent, just for when things are booming and commutes are extra long, and everyone has lots of money.

    BART is rated at 1.5-2 hours for 60 mile (road miles) from SFO to Baypoint, in part because it makes a dozen or more stops and requires a transfer.

    I'm thinking of point to point, sort of like the existing ferry, but about 2-4x as far and fast.

    Oh, and hopefully a lot quieter than BART with ability to hold conversations and even small meetings enroute. BART famously rides on solid axle/wheels, like a little kids plastic toy car, so when it goes around curves there is steel-on-steel screaming at over 100 decibels! The awful noise was used by George Lucas for the sound of the TIE fighters.
     
  2. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    While 60 kts is technically achievable for military applications, it is not practical for commercial uses, where economy is important. Most passenger hydrofoils I know of (Russian and Italian designs) are being operated between 35 and 40 kts.

    I think that your best bet would be to contact Prof. Konstantin Matveev of Washington State University, who is the author of several papers about hydrofoil economics and maintenance issues based on Russian experience: http://www.mme.wsu.edu/~matveev/

    P.S.
    One relevant paper by Prof. Matveev: http://files.balancer.ru/16d779f052...es/b9/b8/b9b8dac492bcae12f3160e8bbee2bd21.pdf

    Cheers
     
  3. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Just found a practical example, for what it's worth.
    We have a long-established hydrofoil line here in southern Italy between Vieste and Tremiti island (40 NM, 1 hr ride), operated by a 180-pax hydrofoil ferry. A one-way ticket costs 12 Euros, and I guess they have made their math correctly, considering that this line has been operative for many years.
    Then there is this new hydrofoil line between Trieste and Porec (Croatia). Same distance, same vessel type, ticket costs 16 Euros. But it is a new line, and they might have decided to stay on the safe side. :)
     
  4. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    That sounds "in the ballpark" except that the Commute in SF Bay Area is very directional, morning VS evening. You MIGHT get two Rush Hour runs in with a 70mph boat and a 70 mile run, say 6:40am and 9am with one hour for return run, but then you are also running near empty on 1/3 of the runs. But also then you aren't hitting the peak Rush Hour when most people need it and at 6:40am or 9am traffic isn't as bad.

    Maybe primetime Business Class runs morn and evening then touristy lower speed runs in mid day and nights.
     
  5. keith_2500hd
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    keith_2500hd Junior Member

    they would have to be us built, JONES ACT. so that would extend out time frame. there is one in Ft. Lauderdale, Bahama shuttle boat.
     
  6. kach22i
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    kach22i Architect

    Cool, similar craft are in my 1976 and 1986 Janes Surface Skimmers - Hovercraft and Hydrofoils.
     
  7. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    I think the bigger issue than economics will be the BCDC who has been trying to kill the existing HSF from Vallejo for years. And the whole landing issue...there really is no good place to make a commuter port. Get out a chart and a highway map, very few good deep water places to access transportation once out of the mid-bay.
     
  8. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

  9. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

  10. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    SF bay shoreline is mudflats, or rocks, IIRC. Also known for choppy waves so what could a few boats do that hasn't been going on 24/7 for a million years.
     
  11. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Yeah, SF Bay Area is a hot bed of them sorts.

    In Saratoga, CA you need approval from a special commission when you repaint your house to approve the COLOR. That includes repaints using the existing color. No 'grandfathering in'. Not for any real reason, like semi-blind people mistaking it for Fire Dept or something, lol, just the artistic opinions of The Board, and they ain't helpful or friendly about it either. Best bet is hiring a designer they like, if you know what I mean.

    A lot of "stake holders".
     
  12. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    Nope, high speed ferry wakes are totally different and can be very destructive. Think storm surge every time one goes by. See the discussions and references in the following thread.

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/simple-wash-rule-47981.html
     
  13. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    You also have the legal problems of a high speed ferry operating in a bay with other boaters, etc... Anything over 35 knots may be too fast... Also those Russian Hydrofoils are like airplanes in maintenance cost.
     
  14. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design


  15. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Always has been and always will be. It's called competition, but not as we know it Jim :p
     
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