Costa Concordia, 80 deg list, really scary !!

Status
Not open for further replies.
"I'm surprised to see so much unsubstantiated fear mongering on a boat design forum. People stating their own fears and fear based opinions as fact, and refusing to believe the opinions of those with some knowledge of the subject."

Hawkboat, your compadre Ross Klein, a professor at Canada's Memorial University (a school with a good reputation in our NA circles) says he has counted 21 sinkings since 1980. I don't know the fellow! Is he trying to short the stock too?.

[ Most people on this forum are not trying to shorten the stock but are exchanging info as they realized that very serious safety upgrades need to be implemented on vessel like the CC. Next time my 80 year old mother take her grandchildren on a cruise; I don't want them to have to say the Lord's Prayer and jump overboard to swim back to shore in the dark of night. I know they will not enjoy it. They might even die ?]

By Jill Schensul
Record Columnist, NorthJersey.com

These latest [cruise ship] accidents have to give us at least a little pause.

In fact, when I started digging, I realized that cruise ship accidents may not be as rare as we would like to believe. Ross Klein, a professor at Canada's Memorial University and the man behind the Web site cruisejunkie.com, tracks cruise safety issues and has testified before Congress about them. Klein has counted 21 sinkings of passenger ships around the world since 1980, including cruise liners and major ferry operations; he's also counted 76 incidents of passenger ships that have run aground during that time, including 24 involving big companies such as Carnival, Costa, Cunard, Holland America, Norwegian, Princess and Royal Caribbean.

Surprised? Unless these incidents result in significant numbers of injuries or fatalities, the cruise lines, for the most part, are able to keep them out of the public spotlight. For example, when a Princess cruise ship was hit by a rogue wave July 18, 2006, tilting violently and injuring 93 people after it left Port Canaveral, Fla., it was only the most severe of half a dozen similar incidents in one year.

"You didn't hear about the others because cruise lines aren't required to report such events unless they cause serious injuries or property damage," said Coast Guard spokeswoman Jennifer Johnson.

After the Empress of the North incident, I wondered about the Nordkapp, which had hit something during a cruise in Antarctica just days before I left on a similar cruise. At the time, the cause of the accident was unknown. Since I returned, I found no follow-up, except for a story from a foreign news service questioning whether oil had leaked into the sea.

There had been a swift conclusion to the investigation of the sinking of the Sea Diamond, however. The ship, carrying 1,156 passengers and 391 crew, hit a well-charted reef near the island of Santorini. The captain had blamed sea currents for the accident, but Greece's merchant marine minister concluded that human error was to blame. The captain and five crew members have been charged with negligence.

http://blog.lipcon.com/2007/05/how_safe_is_cruising.html
 
smartbight said:
"I'm surprised to see so much unsubstantiated fear mongering on a boat design forum. People stating their own fears and fear based opinions as fact, and refusing to believe the opinions of those with some knowledge of the subject."

Hawkboat, your compadre Ross Klein, a professor at Canada's Memorial University (a school with a good reputation in our NA circles) says he has counted 21 sinkings since 1980. I don't know the fellow! Is he trying to short the stock too?.

[ Most people on this forum are not trying to shorten the stock but are exchanging info as they realized that very serious safety upgrades need to be implemented on vessel like the CC. Next time my 80 year old mother take her grandchildren on a cruise; I don't want them to have to say the Lord's Prayer and jump overboard to swim back to shore in the dark of night. I know they will not enjoy it. They might even die ?]
Click to expand...

I made my comment about stock shorting directly to powerabout. There are others who are making emotional posts devoid of facts as well - adding 2 and 2 and arriving at 10. My goal isn't to downplay shortcomings in the cruise industry, rather I would like to see the discussion based on hard facts such as the ones you posted. It may well be that the industry needs a shaking up, and design rules need strengthening. I'm all for it.

I admit I haven't dug into this topic enough to make an informed comment on the state of cruise ship design, but from what I've gathered over the years it seems we need more focus on reigning in the companies and some arrogant captains than we do on design. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Yes, Memorial Uni has a great Nav Arch program. Don't know Ross Klein though.

*edit: I read elsewhere that the Sea Diamond sinking was later blamed on inaccurate charts. Two surveys showed a huge discrepancy in depth and location of the shoal.

Also, I would like to see stats comparing the incidence rates of cruise ships compared to other ships, and to other forms of travel, including automobiles. Also of interest would be stats on vessel incidents caused by design flaw vs those caused by human error. If we assume briefly that human error is the leading cause of incidents, can regulation and training correct that problem, or is there further room to create idiot proof designs?
 
powerabout said:
certainly not a small double hull ship that has grounded on rocks and survived or 2 others that touched the sand and survived
how about a cruise ship that has had a hole punched in by rocks and survived
Click to expand...

ok, smartbight put me onto a good source of info http://www.cruisejunkie.com

If you look at this page Groundings, you will see several groundings that did not result in sinking. The Star Princess stands out as having sustained significant damage that she survived.
 
smartbight said:
Hawkboat, your compadre Ross Klein, a professor at Canada's Memorial University (a school with a good reputation in our NA circles) says he has counted 21 sinkings since 1980. I don't know the fellow! Is he trying to short the stock too?.

[ Most people on this forum are not trying to shorten the stock but are exchanging info as they realized that very serious safety upgrades need to be implemented on vessel like the CC. Next time my 80 year old mother take her grandchildren on a cruise; I don't want them to have to say the Lord's Prayer and jump overboard to swim back to shore in the dark of night. I know they will not enjoy it. They might even die ?]

By Jill Schensul
Record Columnist, NorthJersey.com

These latest [cruise ship] accidents have to give us at least a little pause.

In fact, when I started digging, I realized that cruise ship accidents may not be as rare as we would like to believe. Ross Klein, a professor at Canada's Memorial University and the man behind the Web site cruisejunkie.com, tracks cruise safety issues and has testified before Congress about them. Klein has counted 21 sinkings of passenger ships around the world since 1980, including cruise liners and major ferry operations; he's also counted 76 incidents of passenger ships that have run aground during that time, including 24 involving big companies such as Carnival, Costa, Cunard, Holland America, Norwegian, Princess and Royal Caribbean.
Click to expand...

If anything, Proffessor Klein has been quoted out of context, because he is off by two orders of magnitude.

Perhaps he only considered "cruise ships" as those populated by rich white westerners, instead of all paying passanger vessels. But I would hazard to guess that 1,000-2,000 paying passengers and 200-300 merchant mariners are killed each year at sea from all causes in the 70-80 vessel losses with death that occur each year (mostly due to overloading and lack of government oversight, two items definitely not at work with any major cruise liner.) FWIW IMO reported 142 ships over 100 GRT with 2395 lives lost for 2009, but they exclude losses "such as those involving the high loss of life when sub-standard or overcrowded ships sink while carrying migrants from poor countries or war-torn regions to other countries in search of a better life".

The very few killed here in this unthinkable deliberate act are inconsequential to the number lost in the third world and to the normal hazards of the sea. If you are really concerned about the lives of people at sea you need to stop cut-and-pasting under-informed doom-and-gloom and open your mind to the benifits of bringing political pressure to the place it would do the most good, the insular governments of Africa, southwest & southeast Asia.
 
jehardiman said:
The very few killed here in this unthinkable deliberate act are inconsequential to the number lost in the third world and to the normal hazards of the sea. If you are really concerned about the lives of people at sea you need to stop cut-and-pasting under-informed doom-and-gloom and open your mind to the benifits of bringing political pressure to the place it would do the most good, the insular governments of Africa, southwest & southeast Asia.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the calm voice of reason, jeh.
I hate to think how many unrecorded boats and lives have been lost by
desperate people trying to make the hazardous trip to Australia over the
last 20 years. Hundreds of deaths have been recorded, but I am certain
many smaller boats have just sunk without trace.
 
Ad Hoc said:
The Herald of Free Enterprise changed the design of RoRos for ever . . . . .
Click to expand...

I think those measures were taken after the Estonia disaster 1994 which could have been prevented* if it was done after the Herald of Free Enterprise 1987.

Cheers,
Angel

P.S. - Here an aside about it in an other thread in some posts spreaded from #11 till #26.
* same for the Salem Express 1991 in post#90​
 
Not really following to closely here, but lets not forget entire crews (15 - 20 people) are lost every month or two to deep sea freighter sinkings. Those are complete losses, far off-shore and, apparently acceptable in the big picture. The "cost" of doing business.

-Tom
 
Submarine Tom said:
Not really following to closely here, but lets not forget entire crews (15 - 20 people) are lost every month or two to deep sea freighter sinkings. Those are complete losses, far off-shore and, apparently acceptable in the big picture. The "cost" of doing business.

-Tom
Click to expand...

Yep, anyone who thinks being at sea is safe should go read the Cargo Law Trasnport loss website. http://www.cargolaw.com/gallery.html Besides the Costa Concordia here is a sample from the last two months.

6,536-dwt Korean small product tanker Doola No 3 exploded in waters 6-km northwest of Jawol Island, off Incheon, on Jan. 15. The vessel had been on its way back to the port of Daesan after unloading a cargo of gasoline at Incheon. 11 crew are missing and feared dead. [16-1-2012]

4,100-dwt Edirne (built 1980) sank 5-km from the port of Durres, Albania, on Jan. 15. The vessel had taken on fuel there. One body was found. Two others, including the captain, are missing. 12 men were rescued. [16-1-2012]

56,000-dwt Bulk carrier Vinalines Queen (built 2005) went missing Christmas Day. The vessel was on a voyage from Morowali in Indonesia to Ningde in China was northeast of Luzon in the Philippines when contact was lost. A survivor -- Dau Ngoc Hung (31) -- was rescued after five days adrift at sea but it is unclear if there may be other survivors among the 23 man crew. The seafarer confirms the vessel sank off the Philippines after developing a list. He was picked up by the 206,000-dwt Mitsui controlled London Courage (built 2007), and told rescuers that life rafts had been lowered on the starboard side of the Vinalines Queen but the vessel had sank quickly. The rescue came after an air search and rescue operation was suspended with only an oil slick found near the last reported position of the Vinalines Queen. Before losing contact the vessel developed an 18 degree list suggesting there had been a cargo shift consistent with the liquefaction that nickel ore is prone to if the moisture content is above safe limits. The protection and indemnity clubs have been warning shipowners of the dangers of nickel ore liquefaction since the 45,000-dwt Jian Fu Star (built 1981), the 56,000-dwt Nasco Diamond (built 2009) and the 50,000-dwt Hong Wei (built 2001) sank during the carriage of nickel ore from Indonesia to China with the loss of forty four lives. [2-1-2012]

Indonesian-flagged trawler Ginga carrying eight people sank in the La Perfuse Strait during a fierce storm on Dec 25. Three people dead and five missing. A severe storm is impeding the rescue operation. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 29-12-11]

A trawler carrying a crew of 14 sank off the southeastern coast near Ulsan, North Gyeongsang Province on Dec 26. One man dead and ten missing. The Navy, Coast Guard and Air Force are searching, but 2.5 meter-waves are hindering their search. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 29-12-11]

Vietnamese-flagged freighter Huong Dien 09 carrying coal sank in the Gulf of Tonkin, South China sea after experiencing engine failure on Dec 16. Three dead crew found, six are missing. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 20-12-11]

Three crew members of the Vaygach, a Russian nuclear-powered icebreaker, are reported dead and one injured after three cabins took fire on Wednesday, the local Emergencies Ministry of the Krasnoyarsk Territory said. The incident occurred in the vicinity of Karaul of Taimyr municipal district. As of now, the fire has been extinguished by firefighters, no radiation leak was reported. The injured man has been evacuated by to hospital. The fire cause is being investigated. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 19-12-11]

70-meters wide and 80-meters long Russian-flagged oil rig Kolskaya (built in Finland 1985) carrying 67 people capsized and sank off Russia's east coast amid fierce storms on Dec 18. One 16-ft wave hit the rig and washed away its life boats leaving the crew with no escape. Four men have been confirmed dead, 14 others have been rescued from the freezing water. Search and rescue teams contine to look for the remaining men, but efforts have been hampered by freezing temperatures, driving blizzard, and strong winds. [19-12-11]

28,338-gt Italian-flagged ferry Mega Express 5 (IMO: 9035101) suffered a casualty aboard on Dec 8. A passenger was carried away by a violent gust of which and fell down some statirs causing fatal injuries. Vessel has been arrested for investigation. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 9-12-11]

3,150-dwt Cook Islands-flagged cargo M/V Sanland (IMO: 7607431, built 1977) carrying 3,000 mt of limestone and eight crew sank off the coast of Wales on Nov 28. Five seamen are missing. A helicopter from RAF Valley co-piloted by Prince William rescued two of the crew. Two RNLI lifeboats, four helicopters and two other commercial boats continue to search for the other crew. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 30-11-11]

Cargo M/V Sukuma carrying 300 tons of fertilizer capsized in Port Bell, Lake Victoria on Nov 26. The vessel developed mechanical lapses before capsizing. Two people are feared dead. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 30-11-11]

1664-dwt Korea-flagged cargo M/V Maruka (IMO: 8626599, built 1985) collided with 16-ton F/V in Fukuoka on Nov 27. F/V capsized, skipper was rescued, another fisherman is still missing. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 30-11-11]

M/V Janis R. Brewer collided with a wall of an Ohio River Lock on Nov 22. The impact caused the vessel's barges to separate which caused one man to fall into the river. His body was found in a debris pile newar the locks. An autopsy will determine whether he died of injuries from the fall or drowned. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 23-11-11]

18-ton tuna longliner Koei-maru caught fire on Nov 22. Four fishermen went missing after apparently jumping into Pacific waters off Japan when their boat went up in flames. Fifth crew member was rescued. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 23-11-11]

26,589-dwt Korea-flagged bulk carrier Bright Ruby (IMO 8604474, built 1987) issued a distress call enroute from Penang to Rizhao on Nov 21. The ship survived an encounter with Somali pirates. Six South Koreans and eight Burmese were rescued by nearby ships but three Koreans and four Burmese are still missing. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 22-11-11]

Tanker M/V Britaina-U exploded while berthed ar the Marina area of Lagos on Nov 21. Two people are feared dead in addition to seven vehicles being destroyed. The Lagos State Fire Service put out the fire. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 22-11-11]

F/V San Jose Bayaniham carrying a crew of seven collided with 9,684-gt Superferry 20 (IMO: 9042726) carrying 542 passengers on Nov 19. One man was killed during the collision. The fishing vessel was completely wrecked and evetually sunk. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 21-11-11]

5,460-grt Korea-flagged F/V Oriental Angel (IMO: 7112577, built 1971) carrying 89 crew broke out in fire in Anadyr Bay Bering Sea on Nov 17. Fire engulfed entire vessel and chief mate died fighting the fire. Vessel is still ablaze. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 17-11-11]

Motor banca Green Island carrying 12 people capsized in Lapu-Lapu City on Nov 13. Three survivors were brought about by coast guards. The remaining people are still missing. [From our Sr. Correspondent Tim Schwabedissen, 16-11-11]
Click to expand...

Thats 23 known dead and 131 missing in the last two months
 
I was talking to a few guys from that big Insurance get together in Monaco every year ( 20 years ago)
thay all said 100,000 tons of shipping goes down every month
 
What happened to Costa Concordia is really disturbing... How those people who worked on it be so irresponsible and inattentive to the vessel's condition? I'm deeply depressed.
 
If you build it long enough, tall enough, make it lighter, fancier, with all the latest electronics, and you save money on bulkheads and watertight compartments, plate thickness, then give it to a fool to command... It will sink and kill people.

Remember the captains comments.... It is dark, where the hell was the emergency lighting on a separate battery circuit. Oh, they probably saved some money there.
 
mydauphin said:
If you build it long enough, tall enough, make it lighter, fancier, with all the latest electronics, and you save money on bulkheads and watertight compartments, plate thickness, then give it to a fool to command... It will sink and kill people.
Click to expand...
This is the question in this thread. Was the Costa Concordia sufficiently stable or not? Either it was extraordinary bad luck to beach the ship on a rock outcropping or dropoff causing it to tip over, or the damage stability wasn't sufficient.

What would have happened to the ship if it were not beached sideways to the dropoff? Is there a detailed chart of the bottom where it beached showing the exact slope?
 
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making any potentially dangerous or financial decision, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Status
Not open for further replies.

    • Back
    Top