Commercial Fishing Sailboat

I'd just like to say that by making a sail assisted vessel so complex you lose the efficiency and simplicity of the concept. All the gadgets you listed above are expensive, require maintenance, and cause real problems when they break, always at a very bad time.
Sailing vessels are by nature very simple and crude which is why they are cheap to operate, even with the lack of required fuel. A cheap boat is one that has little machinery and no very expensive and high tech yacht gear like hydraulic winches (priced these lately?) or roller furling.
I've gone to sea for 50 years in various sailing craft from dinghies to many different replica sailing ships and have learned this the hard way.
Many have tried to combine modern fishing gear with sail assist but it seldom seems to last. I've seen these attempts since the 70s here on the west coast of the US. The sails remain furled and the boat operates under power 99% of the time.
Changing to sail power or sail assist would require a change in fishing gear and techniques to accommodate.

 

I totally agree with you that adding hydraulic winches and potentially some level of automation adds complexity and definitely cost. I was more just thinking what I would want in a commercial boat of that size while working and trying to sail. To be honest I think you landed on something with the simplicity, instead of a sailing rig why not focus most of the investment on making everything as efficient as possible. I worked on a 106 LOA, 1927 yacht that was around 100 tons and with a Detroit 12-71 we could manage 4 GPH at 12 knots, this was simply down to a smartly designed displacement hull with a narrow (17.5 ft) beam and an engine that was running no where near its peak output.

 

Long and skinny is always easy to push through water so seems to turn up in efficient designs often. Steam yachts of the pre-WW1 period were often 95 feet long and 10 feet wide. These were very fast, seaworthy when from a good designer, used reasonable amounts of fuel and would do the same today.
Fishing gear for sailing vessels is quite different and has to be designed to use a more passive and selective fish catching technique than the usual brute force, 500-hp-towing-a-seine-at-300-feet operation we see today that produces less and less of fewer and smaller fish.
The oceans are truly getting fished out when one looks at the charts of relative size of fish and how they have declined over the years as we catch them before they can get big.
Sailing fishing vessels make ecological sense in that they catch fewer fish with more effort because they don't have the petroleum crutch and must use natural and fickle forces, but economically I doubt any but a true believer (like myself) would consider them a good investment.
Until fuel costs $10 a gallon that is.
Here are some pre-war photos of traditional Vietnamese fishing craft. This is about 1960-62 and in a few years all this was gone.
If we get bombed or robbed (seems to be well in progress) back to the age of surviving on a beach with crude iron tools we maybe will be fishing like this again, if there any fish to catch that is.

 

many good points to comment on here ---------

This K class unit is all about simplicity AND efficiency is the main aim as a sail assist working vessel in troll line Albacore fishery only as a fishing method. So many factors have come into play in the thought process as it developed on paper AND so many previous vessel at sea experience have been melded into this design.
I can go on etc. the working rig of No 2 headsail and full mizzen should be able to be carried ALL the time at sea to full value. The hanked mizzen can be dropped by the helmsman at the second level station just like that leaving the hanked No 2 headsail, and or both, can be lowered by the helmsman too from that control level for whatever reason. ie; you should be able to sail this vessel up to and pick up a mooring buoy under sail among other things.

Many more points here too but moving on AND should you feel the need to upgrade the specs then by all means lift the design into the ' Super Yacht ' class with the hydraulics, roller furling and anything else you can think of by all means. I would love it. The slope of the forward super structure would be ideal for nano panels skin for instance.

I think this design WILL stand the test of time and really come into it,s own!

Kanfish

 

many good points to comment on here ---------

This K class unit is all about simplicity AND efficiency is the main aim as a sail assist working vessel in troll line Albacore fishery only as a fishing method. So many factors have come into play in the thought process as it developed on paper AND so many previous vessel at sea experience have been melded into this design.
I can go on etc. the working rig of No 2 headsail and full mizzen should be able to be carried ALL the time at sea to full value. The hanked mizzen can be dropped by the helmsman at the second level station just like that leaving the hanked No 2 headsail, and or both, can be lowered by the helmsman too from that control level for whatever reason. ie; you should be able to sail this vessel up to and pick up a mooring buoy under sail among other things.

Many more points here too but moving on AND should you feel the need to upgrade the specs then by all means lift the design into the ' Super Yacht ' class with the hydraulics, roller furling and anything else you can think of by all means. I would love it. The slope of the forward super structure would be ideal for nano panels skin for instance.

I think this design WILL stand the test of time and really come into it,s own!

Kanfish

 

Now I understand and I should have read the whole thread. You have designed a sail-assisted powered vessel around one specific trolling method for one type of fish. Since your design is based on practical experience in the fishery you may be successful in saving fuel and being more competitive if the rig cost does not eat more than the difference.
One problem always with fully powered sailing vessels is you are paying for a practical, therefore somewhat large, rig and also full powering with big tanks etc.
Also both propulsion methods require maintenance, repair and replacement over time, therefore need an economic reason to co-exist, since you are paying twice to build and keep all this.
Expensive fuel may be that reason soon.
Trolling for salmon on our Pacific coast with its fickle and changeable weather needs lots of circling schools in a calm, trolling upwind, working close inshore around pinnacles and other factors that have prevented sail assist from working for us.
Never could get enough sail and its bits in a place that wasn't occupied by poles, floppers, the 6 to 8 fishing lines, the gurdies, the antenna farm or the stack for the rig to do any practical good.
Some set a small triangular steadying sail from mast to boom but it is never sheeted or adjusted, just left up to slow the rolling and assist the flopper-stoppers.
At sea after tuna in the trade winds it is probably quite different, though I still think you must circle bait balls when the fish are feeding on them, which means repeatedly tacking or gybing or handling sail just when you should be fishing.

 

All types of tuna here with trolling, not only Albacore, anything else that will take a trolled lure too of which there are many more to target with this gear.
The small cost of this rig may surprise you in that I have avoided getting caught with Spar makers and yacht riggers by using box section steel for the mast and the price I obtained for 300 meters of 18 mm galvanized wire for rigging was very economical. I would have to get swages done commercially but not being labled ' Marine ' comes into more normal pricing quotes.
Now sails where interesting in getting costed and I had North Sails NZ do a quote knowing full well they would most likely be the most cost but a really good build of quality. They came back at just under NZD $75,500 for the four sails ( including the Genaker ) The working rig of mizzen and No 2 equalled $ 33,597 plus our NZ GST on top.
The Mizzen and No 2 headsail I asked for reef points at 3 m up from the sail foot too giving essentially a No 3 rig choice in this costing.
Part of the trick here in this design is the low powered rig giving the vessel minimal heel while working for the catching crew pulling fish. 15 degree would be too much and I would be reducing sail.
The next huge plus factor is the fact that only the two head stays come down to the vessel fore deck. The side stays are totally out of the picture for freeing up the side decks for fishing, mooring lines when docking etc. Clean and clear decks!
At sea circling fish with working rig should not be a problem with gybing Chinese or otherwise, ( Chinese gybe, ) no mainsail to worry about with this rig!
I have even chosen my engines with care here too with low reving, heavy engines and gearboxes for this vessel. 4 cylinder but 8 litre engines. twin engine configuration for in harbour manourverability as one factor too.

This unit is a modern and viable blend of everything that has gone before and fits into many different potential services from all that is listed on the Kansai web site so read on and think on, maybe even build one, yes?

Kanfish

 

Sounds like you are proceeding with thought and commitment. I only hope the brutal numbers add up well enough for it to see wide practical use.
Best of luck and fair winds.

 

Went to the Kansai fish site and looked at the design. Innovative, fairly radical, the shroud base looks a little narrow making the wire loading high and I am not familiar with NZ gear so don't see how you spread the hooks from the drawings on-line. Are there no trolling poles which stick out to the sides?

 

Yes, to utilize a reasonable weight tube this length of spar will probably require 3 sets of spreaders to resist compression buckling.....and a wider shroud base will reduce loading, even so I doubt 18mm galvanized wire will be anywhere near adequate.

Kanfish.....What's the maximum righting moment at full load? Or what is full load displacement and max righting righting arm length?

 

The biggest deterrent to new construction of fishing vessels is the onerous regulation that is imposed by most of the (so called) developed world. This regulation eliminates the possibility of sustainable or subsistence fishing. We have laws on licensing, catch limits, by-catch limits, vessel construction, vessel inspection, stability, operation, manning certification, and on and on.

In Canada, the EU, Australia, and probably (undoubtedly) many other parts of the world, sensibly economic construction is impossible, the rules dictate what you can have or do. Here in Canada a sailing fishboat the size Kansi (and I further back in the thread) has proposed will require certified (trained and licensed) crew, a stability booklet that dictates which sails may be flown in which winds, etc. All this regulation is imposed on fewer boats fishing fewer days each year. This year the spring salmon trolling season in area F (west side of Queen Charlottes) lasted 12 days....ie you have 12 days to make your yearly living.........

Each year more of the available stock is allocated to groups other than the commercial fisherman....in such a climate building a new boat is impossible. Retrofit of sails to existing boats is far more likely, though it never seems to come to pass without a subsidized program of some sort.

 

First, thanks for the encouragement wishes.
This design is not that radical really, just a blend of many things that have gone before perhaps that you are not used to seeing worked in this manner. If you had spent any time aboard a fairly standard Japanese fishing vessel at sea to know their sea keeping qualities and load carry ability of these vessels then much of my hull design work would fall into place and be ' normal '.
As to line carrying, trolling is universal and yes the poles are shown at 14 m length. Six lures off each pole in the normal manner and a forward line to the bow allowing another four per side in closer to the vessel with the remainder run off the stern including a Whisky line giving twenty five lures and with teaser lures in the system too.

 

A bit more innovation with this mast work that some might call radical perhaps.
Check the Home page on the site again and you will see that this mast is flanged and hinged at about two meters above the observation level. The lower section of the mast is welded to the super structure so in fact you are only holding up the twenty meter upper section with the rig. The mast can be likened to nothing more than an old fashioned clothes line prop to hold the head sails up. There is more to it than that of course but you will get the gist I would think!

 

I can only quote what I do know of New Zealand ' rules ' etc here but if you believe most of the above then yes nobody would build a new fishing vessel.
I would love to launch into a ' tirade ' of counter discussion here laughing at the rule makers in general but the reality is that this K class design can and will be built here, fit for purpose with the absolute minimum of ' rule makers ' advice and interference. Manning regulations and Engineers tickets included.
ie the two main engines are less than 100 HP requiring minimal qualifications.
In fact by the time I get done with this side of the ' rules guys' I would expect to get a pat on the back for coming up with a design such as this to fish the seas in such safety and bringing back to market such high quality product.
Can you fault this design for safety and sea keeping qualities??

The Albacore troll fishery in New Zealand waters is UNREGULATED at present and under utilized, Yellow Fin Tuna is only lightly caught and many other species that will take trolled lures are way under caught due to the total mismanagement and extermination of fishermen by second rate at best so called managers.
Why would I not come up with some thing like this vessel. I am not still at school wanting to be told what to do by so many second rate managers / rule makers all parasiteing off the catching sector and not fit to lick my boots when it come down to it.
I have a Coastal Masters ticket, Engineers Ticket, Radar and Radio, best of all I am way out front with sea miles and fishing experience.

 

Start rant:
I personally knew a fisherman who worked the Bristol Bay fleet of sailing gillnetters before 1948, and he said they lost guys all the time.
Of a group of 50 or so working for a cannery for the summer on 25 boats, 2 or 3 or 4 would die every season. Usually drowned, caught in a gillnet, capsized, blown ashore in a bad surf etc.
It was not pretty or idyllic and powered boats and safety regulations made a huge difference, saving lives but putting a lot more pressure on the fish and resulting in more regulation and market distortion in a vicious cycle until we are where we are today.
But some of the underlying reasons get complicated.
In the 1880s among the large, shore-based fleets of open boats fishing the coast of the present UK, every few years a sudden bad gale would kill several hundred men, wives and children were left to die in a brutal, starve-the-poor society, and steam drifters and larger decked sailing trawlers run by small corporations instead of individual boat owners were the ones that benefited due to their ability to survive the same conditions, then dominate the market with their product with less competition.
This is called successful business, but it really means concentrating profits. With the many people in many small boats, both in Alaska and UK, everybody caught less fish and more people made a little bit of the available profit from the public resource, at the risk of going to sea in frail cockleshells with no safety oversight.
Since this had been going on since long before pre-history the fishermen accepted their lot and were very competent boat designers, builders and operators on coasts exposed to the whole N. Atlantic in UK. This they did to survive or die, not because some bureaucrat with a job told them how, what, when, where, who etc. The guys in Alaska in the sailing days pre-1948 just needed a job and there were lots of jobs with this business model.
With the industrial model of larger investment (larger vessels with smaller crews using fossil fuels for jobs instead of muscle) all the profit from the available fish went to far fewer people, bringing "success" by concentrating the available wealth and catching more fish in less time, but just meaning the former small boat fishermen needed to move to different jobs and buy fish in the market instead of eating their catch.
This turned into profit marketed as safety and security.
But it was security of investment and continued profitable resource, not labor.
By concentrating wealth, political power is easily bought and the public manipulated. W.R. Hearst and Rupert Murdoch are but two obvious examples. UK newspapers of the 1880s deplored the loss of life and inferiority of small boat fishing and extolled industrial solutions as the wave of the future.
Of course they made a lot of money from stock and advertising so why would they do anything else...
Since then, that model of 'success in wealth concentration as the ultimate good' has taken over everything so of course the owners of the vessels that make money now are the ones that are have paid the politicians in one way or another, with money or votes, and all others are kept out by a truly Soviet-level bureaucracy of impossibilities.
This is successfully sold to the public as protecting the resource, and that is true as it is under great pressure, but the net result is a very few people who can afford the huge investment get lots richer by taking all the available fish, so the profit from the public resource is protected for a very few, not for all.
Everything bad about the Soviet system is surfacing in the US, inefficiency, absurd wealth display next to gutted small towns, shoddy goods in the stores unless you're very rich, corruption, violent regional movements used as cover for the very rich to do their usual job of getting richer at the expense of everybody and everything else, the treasury, pensions and social systems slowly gutted and all again diverted to the wealthy few until the country will soon resemble the former USSR, polluted, rusty, glaringly stratified socially, its industry crumbling from lack of maintenance due to corruption, roads and bridges falling down, filled with poor people scrambling for the few resources remaining as profits are increased by cutting wages and benefits until a real bottom-feeder equilibrium is reached and US is very like Victorian England with its vast slums, unchecked pollution, obscene wealth at the top and endless wars to seize resources to bring in even more.
Some of our systems seem to resemble the way 1930s Italy was run with the intense interconnectedness of Corporations and Government through hiring back and forth with huge financial rewards until every one in charge in business and government is a millionaire from the business world that lied and bought his way into office, or cheats to keep his company/bank/business at the top.
A realistic solution to problems?
That will never make a profit or pay to re-elect a politician, so all regulations will stay in place and new ones will appear that always seem to benefit a very small group of people who own the entire planet, and them alone.
As a result, we are not allowed to experiment with sailing fishing boats since we cannot compete in a rigged game.
Same with solar power, efficient light bulbs, sensible cars, high speed rail and on and on. Entrenched profitable, highly centralized interests always cover their asses and keep anything de-centralized from developing because they can't make a profit on it.
End rant.