classic 21m US schooner NINA missing

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Titirangi, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. capt vimes
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 388
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Austria

    capt vimes Senior Member

    i do not understand all this here any more...

    how often does it happen, that a vessel is going missing in the tasman sea?
    how many of them were not properly equipped - what ever that means according to NZ regulations?
    who evaluates the condition of an vessel going into the blue?
    and to what/whose expense?

    if we get some figures, we might be able to see the whole case of rescue-expenses and claimed regulation changes/enforcement a bit clearer...
    otherwise this thread has become just a punch of personal statements worth nothing...
    unless you are a politician and try to "convince" people to join the "right side of the force" - not the dark one obviously... ;)

    i am completely with PAR - there are way too many regulations and laws out there which have reduced our freedom to a mere idea and still the cry for more personal restriction/prosecution/regulation enforcement is not dying away, but getting louder by the second...
    it makes me puke... :(
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 490, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I think there are some areas where better regulation is possibly necessary, likely updates to existing laws, but I don't see the problem as a regulatory one, so much as an enforcement issue. This is a common problem with many laws, insufficient or irregular enforcement.

    It's just not practical to stop and inspect every pleasure vessel, attempting to venture into deep water. I can see a rational for required equipment on all pleasure craft, that get into a specific class of use, say the A,B, C and D arrangement, currently used to describe what a vessel is. All A vessels must have this, this and this, etc. In the event of a incident, if your vessel isn't properly equipped, you are fined or worse. This is partly in play now, in the USA for some items, such as PDF's or fire protection (etc.), but I could see some expansion, maybe including EPIRB's, maybe radar reflectors and a few other things. This is a can of worms as I mentioned previously, but some efforts could be justified, if the situation or incident percentage warrants it. This is the crux of the problem. At what percentage of incident to non-incident pleasure boating events do these new requirements come to bear? A very difficult question, as though we do have statistics and the incident percentage is very low, where (and how) do you draw the line and how will it get funded and enforced.

    It's not enough to wish for something to get done, a reasonable idea is one that can get done, not talked about. As an example, subtle changes to the way manufactures build gas powered engines in the 60's has made a huge impact on fires aboard. Another is the PFD regulations for minors, which has proven to save countless lives. These regulations have been work through and implemented in such a fashion that they work. The same could be employed on a class A or B vessel, though these don't get pulled over by the harbor patrol as frequently, as the 18' bow rider with JimBob, JoeLarry and their 5 drunk cousins aboard, on a local lake or river. What's the enforcement procedure here? Does a USCG cutter chase down every presumed A or B class vessel for an inspection? Some level of practicality and possible implementation must apply. Other wise congress is just going to have to belly up and procure several dozen extra cutters and crews, per coast.
     
  3. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    My insurance company keeps a very sharp eye on the yachts maintenance schedule and its safety, communications equipment, and crew skill level.

    I assume that Nina was insured ? and that her insurance company approved her for area, season, of operation.

    The boat I sail is in very good condition. She could sink in five minutes due to an onboard fire.

    Collisions with shipping are also deadly.

    A helmsman's mistake in heavy weather can have serious consequences
     
  4. Titirangi

    Titirangi Previous Member

    I thought forums were intended for posting personal opinions based on experience, learnings etc that contribute to sharing knowledge. What else is there apart from only alternative is quoting dogma from commercial or govt sources.
     
  5. capt vimes
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 388
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Austria

    capt vimes Senior Member

    talking about regulations:
    when i started with the whole sailing thing almost 2 decades ago, it was mandatory for any vessel here in europe to have one of those horseshoe like floating devices mount to the stern in a fashion that you could easily throw it over board in case of need... they also had a flashing light tethered to it which would activate once turned over i.e. in the water...
    sensible and good for the unlucky soul going swimming involuntarily especially during night...

    a couple of years later the flashing light was gone but the whole thing was tethered to the ship by a length of cheap line one would only use to dry clothes on...
    initially we thought that this was not so unreasonably, because we now could rope the man in...
    until the day i was the unlucky one over board...

    you cannot imagine how fast this stupid piece of bright orange foam is rushing past you and how dangerous it would have been for me to grab that bloody thing!
    back on board i told the skipper to undo the line because it is nothing but a hazard to the MOB.

    it made me think - how comes that a sensible piece of emergency equipment became so obsolete?

    well - the boating and charter companies are controlled regularly and have to comply to regulations...
    what is more inexpensive?
    a flashing light where you have to change the bulbs and batteries every now and then and check their function on a regular basis or a piece of cheap line you do not have to maintain at all?
    who made that regulation on whose pushing?
     
  6. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    You need two devices...a throwable ring with light, die marker and spar on one corner of the transon and a towable lifesling...ski rope type arangement... on the other corner of the transom.

    Also recomended to have a made up halyard penant stowed in the cockpit that you add to a spi halyard so that you can pass the penant to the man over, have him clip on then winch the man onboard on deck.

    Ten meters does the trick
     
  7. bpw
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 291
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 34
    Location: Cruising

    bpw Senior Member

    Maybe, maybe not, lots of cruising boats run without insurance since it is so hard to find reasonable offshore policies. Both in terms of cost and what they require of the boat and crew. Even more difficult for a wooden boat.
     
  8. capt vimes
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 388
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Austria

    capt vimes Senior Member

    are these the regulations in spain or are they just your recommendations? ;)
     
  9. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    All common requirements for safe offshore sailing are described in

    http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS/2010 US Cat 1 Mo.htm

    I carry this arrangement because I spent many years as boat captain on ocean racers and have actually retrieved a man overboard.

    The rules require crew to practice and demonstrate competence with man overboard drills.

    If you can find a better way to perform the maneuver or demonstrate competence then be my guest.
     
  10. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 457
    Likes: 51, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: NW

    Milehog Clever Quip

    I was fortunate enough to learn to sail in an area with lots of wind and plenty disabled board sailors to practice my rescue technique on.
    We use, among other things, a throw-able float with 15 meters of soft 14mm floating line with a small float on the other end.
    This gives the option of tying off the line or letting it go, also it affords the swimmer a bigger target.
    These days our sailing is in a 4.5 meter dinghy but we keep a good boarding ladder on the power cruiser.
     

  11. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 457
    Likes: 51, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: NW

    Milehog Clever Quip

    I keep watching the news for good news and have not given up hope for the crew of the Nina.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.