Chop Gun or Hand Lay

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by mrbcurry1, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    Chopper guns are still very common and most boats and other products are still made this way, in fact it's by far the most common method. Yes there were chopper guns being used 30,40 and 50 years ago, 50 years ago they weren't quite as common, but from then on its been the mainstay of the industry. Blisters didn't magically appear with the advent of chopper guns, although a poorly adjusted one can increase the chances, it has more to do with the glass and resin.

    I'm not a huge fan of chopper guns (ran one for 25 years), but they work well in many situations.
     
  2. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    Well Tunnels, get over it yourself. Even though a chopper gun can make a layup as strong as a hand layed csm, they're still both at the bottom of the list as far as strength goes. It's not only a matter of the length and orientation of the fibers, it's a matter of the ratio of fibers to resin. Or can you make a layup of chop with the same fiber to resin ratio as using fabrics? Even then I would think you'd need an even better fiber to weight ratio to account for the short fibers of chop.

    Btw, this :p thing, putting thumbs in it's ears, wiggling it's fingers and sticking out it's tongue is only the childs version of this, [​IMG]. They're both annoying.
     
  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Ok strand length along with everything else can be adjusted simply by removing one blade from a 3 blade rotor so you get long and short or fit a 4 bladed rotor and remove 2 blades to make them consistantly long or a 3 blade rotor with just one blade and strands are quite long !!,nice to lay but bummers of things going over a external edges !!, the long strands want to spring up in both directions after they been rolled down.
    Some where almost a year ago i asked about strand length and got a answer that 5 mm long was completely satisfactory i coudnt believe that !!, so one blade removed from a 3 blade rotor gives a combination of long and short fibres .
    Any way you ever measured the strands in csm matt ??
    SAMSAM HAVE YOU EVER STOOD HOLDING A GUN AND USED IT for hours and hours ?? If you havent done you time actually doing the work how can you say whats at fault ??
    The resin to glass ratios are completely adjust able the speed of the chopper determins the glass usage you can pull one string of glass !, two strings of glass or on a really big layup 3 strings of glass but have to have the big chopper motor to pull that . The pump air pressure determins a small adjustment as to the amount of resin that is delivered or there is a selection of differant nozzle sizes and spray angles that can be changed plus the airpressure adjustment as well !!! lets not forgetting the catalyst !! its adjustable as well on the older venus guns from .5 % all the way to over 3.5% in small incriments along the way .
    So all everything can be controlled and is at the disposal of the operater .
    The only thing the gun cant do for you is think !!
    Now if you have a operator that cant think then your in trouble !!!
    Believe me when i say there are so many operators that cant and dont think and dont really care its just point and shoot .
    So you keep on about the gun is the problem when its only doing what the unthinking operator is telling it to do .
    Same as ,cars dont have accidents people do !!!its the idiot behind the wheel, the unthinking driver !!
    Chopper gun is the same senario !! its the idiot holding and using it thats the problem !!
    You can rattle on for as long as you like i have used many differant types of guns over the years and spent countless hours spraying glass and resin . In more recent times have trained and shown operators what to do and how to use etc etc .
    Its an art ,same as gel coating its a fine art , and most operators just dont have it !!:(
     
  4. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    So... what's your point?
     
  5. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 257
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    Location: Haines and Juneau

    midnitmike Senior Member

    That was rhetorical question...right? Please tell me you don't really mean for him to answer that...;)

    MM
     
  6. OFFSHORE GINGER
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: Mich

    OFFSHORE GINGER Junior Member

    Tunnels , you really need to give it up and personally in my opinion any high end boat builder using a Chopper gun in the long run is not a boat worth buying , and seeing that in the past you have clearly stated that you are building Mega yachts what does your build mainly consist of ?
     
  7. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Its time you checked the wheel on you barrow you still pushing the same old same old for ages take your blinkers off !! :eek:
    theres lots companies still using and still buying chopper guns !!
    you should cast you eyes on the units being produced here in china !! wow they are really space aged and so so simple !!I can understand why there ideas never been used before !!
    Like i have said because the our operaters here are really slack and hopeless we removed the chopper completely and just us them as a saturator gun .
    So now you going to tell me thats still going to make the glass resin rich as well i surpose !!
    into all kinds of boats !smallest 26 foot cruisers going up through the whole range of sizes !! The latest is a 90 foot lake boat for buisness men to cruise and have there conferances in peace and quiet away fron the offices and take there secetaries for night cruises and to play !! !!:D
     
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Answer the question !!
    Have you held a chopper gun for many hours making anything includng boats ??:confused::eek::mad:
     
  9. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Last time for me was in 1984...................:D
    Oberon submarine casing hatch inserts..... the memories:rolleyes:
     
  10. OFFSHORE GINGER
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: Mich

    OFFSHORE GINGER Junior Member

    Tunnels , as always.................. another rant which seems be something you always do very well along with thinking you know more then anyone else , and having to be rude just to prove your point because not everyone on this thread will agree with you or your way of thinking . :eek:
     
  11. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Haines and Juneau

    midnitmike Senior Member

    Now wait just a minute Tunnels.
    Throughout this thread you have been extolling the virtues of chopper guns over almost every other form of material, saying in affect that with proper control one can produce as good or better laminate then hand laid CSM or even woven fabric. Not only that but you have mentioned over and over again how you've personally trained operators in the correct use of the equipment spanning many decades of your long career in this industry. And now in post #82 of this discussion you admit that even under your personal tutelage, guidance, and supervision the company you currently work for has decided that the best use of it's chopper guns is as a resin delivery system. If that's all it's good for then you may as well use 5 gal buckets and rollers because you'll get a better laminate by applying a bit of elbow grease, and Lord knows you must have an inexhaustable of that.

    With that being said, I can ask the same question as Sam Sam. So... what's your point?

    MM
     
  12. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    And i see you havent changed either . have a good life and remember each day it gets closer to its eventual end !:D
     
  13. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Like any equipment that people use its only as good as the person using it !!
    A saturater gun is ten steps ahead of the humble bucket a roller system . one person can wet with a gun much quicker than one person with a bucket and roller . !:D
    Oh And the reson why the switch is the operator could not cope as a chopper applicator but spraying resin hes ok !! typical male can only think of one thing at a time . where as women are born multi taskers fron the day they born just about !!.
     
  14. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    tunnels they dont build boats like that any more, they all use infusion
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Get Real !!

    Get real !! i dont know of any place that infuses any of there boats ! not one !! tell the truth !!
    i dont not know of any companies that infuse any products boats or other wise .
    I was talking to a manufacture and owner of a company and they changed back to hand laid to speed up there production because it was so slow !
    Infusion i so highly overrated and its thought of as being the untlimate in building but its not .sorry !!:confused:
     
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