Catalyst: Toorale Man mystery - ABC TV Science

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by cutting edge, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Hi
    If you know Physics of drag resistance , have time to waste and don't use the " I'm no expert" cop-out , then please read on. This q. has nothing whatsoever to do with boats , has no correct answer and expert academics can't understand q. or answer .

    A skull was found with a flat, slicing excision of bone and dated at 1200s when Australian Aboriginals had no metal . Experts agreed it seemed to be sword-cut with the closest type being a light-weight African sword ..so obviously a boomerang caused the cut . ( True. It's published by Cambridge..)

    Living bone is part-fluid 40% with blood marrow in the skull so drag is ~ Velocity sq. Area . The hard bone Drag is ~Velocity Area . Hardwood boomerang blades are about 5-10mm thick at 10mm back from edge with sharpness of around .5mm. Swords are about 2-3mm thick with sharpness about .3mm . Speed for cricket bowlers / baseball pitchers is around 150 ft / sec , 45 m./sec. The tip of the weapon at 600mm long would double that speed. Maybe the force of the arm also increases the energy compared with a free moving object.

    The destructive effect of 6mm , 10mm and 20mm etc objects on bone at such velocities is shown in these tests . I believe that Physics prevents a 10mm thick object from causing a clean-cut slice in bone but causes wide damage and shapeless breakage . So this skull could not have been cut by wood . What is your maths response ?



    Catalyst: Toorale Man murder mystery - ABC TV Science

    www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4211835.htm
    Toorale Man murder mystery. ... : ‘Head injuries of Roman gladiators ... and Australian archaeology’ .
    --------------------------------------
    However , an ANU research thesis 2016 provides facts in contrast :

    " I have received the following comment from the writer: " The aim of the experiments were to determine whether traditional Aboriginal weapons could have caused trauma similar to that of the Toorale skull. Unfortunately our methods did not produce trauma,.. "


    School Administrator (Postgraduate Coursework Administrator)
    School of Archaeology and Anthropology
    ANU College of Arts and Social Sciences. Australia.


    Bone Micro-Fracture Observations From Direct Impact of Slow Velocity ...
    jammonline.com/15614.fulltext
    by DC Kieser - ‎2014
    Materials and Methods: We observed the effect of 9 mm spherical non-deforming
    steel projectiles fired at increasing velocities of 10 ft/s (3 m/s) to 200 ft/s (60 m/s) ..
    .
    Bone Fractures Produced by High Velocity Impacts - University of ...
    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/49641/1/1001200110_ftp.pdf

    by DF Huelke - ‎1967 - ‎
    The effects of high velocity impact to the distal end of 122 human ... impact velocities the bone exploded with a violent radial displacement of the ..... of impact velocity is due to the resistance ...
    -----
    Blunt force trauma to skull with various instruments - The Malaysian ...
    www.mjpath.org.my/2014/v36n1/blunt-force-trauma-to-skull.pdf
    Cited by 3 - ‎Related articles
    comminuted, and distastic) were analyzed according to type of blunt object used; surface ...
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    You must be "bone" idle to have time to ponder this ! Who says it cannot be a sword cut, even if 700 years old.
     
  3. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Mr Efficiency
    Everyone says so. Aboriginals did not , did not, have metal 700 years ago. They had wood . Experts say an iron sword was impossible so a wooden boomerang must have been used. An iron sword is evidence for Indonesian contact .
     
  4. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    We know aborigines did not make metal implements, but although the area in question is far from the sea, and especially the northern coast where Asian contact must have occurred, it could still have found its way far inland as a trade item.
     
  5. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    You feel that there were trade items 700 years ago worth travelling to Australia for when Macassans came for sea cucumber and not for trade . How valuable would an iron sword be and if it came into tribal possession , why let it go repeatedly so it travelled across all those countries to NSW ? My idea is that an Indonesian used his iron sword on the Darling river in 1200s.

    At least 2 Aust unis , Cambridge and Fed Forensic claim it was wood. To answer that , I'm inquiring on the basis of Drag resistance and published data . Hopefully someone will consider that even though this Forum moved my question from the Hydrodynamic section .
     
  6. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I mean traded among aboriginal tribes, the original owner may have met a sticky end as his entourage attempted to establish a beach-head. Something that none managed to do, including no doubt many sea-faring Pacific peoples who made landfall along the East Coast, until gun-wielding Europeans arrived and were able to over-power any resistance..
     
  7. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Yes but why would an Aboriginal trade away an iron sword ? .." why let it go repeatedly so it travelled across all those countries to NSW ?"
    Last century items like green glass bottles and bulldozers became totem deities in North Oz. ( like the US parachute drops of supplies in WWII in New Guinea became the cargo cult).

    Now you're really dragging this away from boat design .net.
    Bundjalung people of north NSW remember that a boat arrived from Ngareenbil "overseas islands ". In Old Bali language that means "your beloved countryman". The 3 brothers with grandmother gave laws and languages to countries. ( Isaacs 1980). Their names are Old Balinese words, derived from Old Javanese 800-1300AD .
    and blah blah blah and so on.
     
  8. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I don't know "cutting edge", they may have got a job-lot of swords to distribute ! So much gets lost in the mists of time, but I would not discount a sword could have traversed that distance.
     
  9. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Here are discounted job-lots of magic.
    old CIREBON KERIS Java kris tribal art magic sword Indonesia ...
    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/426364289701353996/
    Keris is a distinctive, asymmetrical dagger from Indonesia. Both a weapon and spiritual object, krises are often considered to possess magical powers.

    "The kris is associated with Javanese culture, and the Balinese, Banjar, Bugis, Makassar. ( Banjar "village" may be Bundjalung people NSW where the boat arrived. Bugis were famed merchant sea-men and Makassar came to Oz 16th century.)

    Kris-makers did more than forge the weapon, they carried out the old rituals which could infuse the blade with mystical powers. For this reason, kris are considered almost alive because they may be vessels of spirits, either good or evil. Legends tell of kris that could move of their own volition and killed individuals at will.

    " Ken Arok, in the last days of the Kediri kingdom in the 13th century. The customer ordered a powerful kris to kill the mighty chieftain of Tumapel, Tunggul Ametung. Ken Arok eventually stabbed the old bladesmith to death because he kept delaying the scheduled completion of the kris. Dying, the bladesmith cursed the kris through prophecy that the unfinished or incomplete kris would kill seven men, including Ken Arok. Ken Arok used Mpu Gandring's cursed kris to assassinate Tunggul Ametung, cunningly put the blame to Kebo Ijo, and built a new kingdom of Singhasari. "

    Ken Arok attacked king Kritajaya of Java in 1222 whose navy had been sailing to west Papua . The king went to " land of gods " , "disappeared without trace" . Bundjalung , Byron Bay, is the farthest east a person could go in Oz.
     
  10. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

  11. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Thank you, yes there are sharp stone-blades in Oz , but not straight-edged as shown in the ABC pic with a ruler in the fracture. Stone is about 10mm thick at the width of this skull slice and heavier than wood or light sword. This then is seen in the tests of objects hitting bone causing general destruction and comminution of trabeculae marrow and cortex . Imagine slashing meat with a carving knife then using the back of the knife then use the back of 2 knives together.
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Except on the imagination of academics, there is no proof that some sailors with metal swords didn't land in Australia and chopped some heads. Academics, in their protected environments, don't comprehend what a skilled sailor can and will do; sometimes just for the hell of it.
     
  13. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    The British and Spanish needed gunpowder across the globe . Aboriginal hardwood sharp blades were almost as effective as iron swords along with 3meter spears, shields and war boomerangs.
    However , why would Indonesian sailors walk into central Australia as a war party? Kangaroos won't stand and fight , usually, and British explorers usually starved to death unless they had Aboriginal assistance with food . But the evidence is that Indonesian Hindus and Buddhists were welcomed in 1200s as valued teachers . An evil sorcerer named Parampari was killed in battle by a war club. Sanskrit / Indonesian "parampara" is a line of Hindu /Buddhist teachers so the conflicts seem to be religious .

    Could anyone comment on the topic : the maths of 10mm objects hitting bone ?
     
  14. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The answer to "why would Indonesian sailors walk into central Australia as a war party?" ignores everything we know about human nature. Also, they could've lost or traded a metal sword.
    As for the math involved, you should post this in a forensic medicine forum. We like boats .
     

  15. cutting edge
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    cutting edge New Member

    Gonzo
    Central Australia is not Wisconsin it's Arizona without horses . Death valley . A war party wouldn't have spare energy for chasing armed tribal warriors for no particular reason except curiosity for 400 miles . Biting the hand that feeds is not good seamanship.

    Yes I have posted in forensics and asked boatloads of experts. Hydrodynamic members may be able to comment with their interest in math.
     
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