C70600 Copper Nickel flake source

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by nero, Jul 5, 2007.

  1. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Coppercoat complies will the current legislation in the USA and is available. However, when the final EPA approval is granted soon, there will be a US distributor for easier access.

    There have been other companies that have since fallen by the wayside. To develop the correct resin and mix it in the correct ratio with the correct grade, shape, size and type of copper additive needs HSE (UK) approval, as it is not allowed (in the UK or Europe anyway) just to go around playing with pesticides and experimenting away with no controls!!

    What do research departments of paint companies do all day? It's far more sensible to have them do the research and guarantee the results! Here's a question, what's worse? To pay too little and loose all your money, or to pay too much and it works, but you pay just a bit more than the task might have cost? Simple :D

    Pericles
     
  2. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,640
    Likes: 124, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1802
    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    Pericles, with all respect mete, we are not playing around with pesticides at all, and bugger the paint companies, you are living in a nanny state with a nanny mind.

    No wonder Frosty got outa da place!
     
  3. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Landlubber,

    No worries mate. I always admire the get up and go propensities of some Orstralians who are able to ignore the contradictions in their own country. Oz has been emasculated by your various governments' desires to water down the old independent free spirit that was the hall mark of ANZACS. You've got more rules and regs than we have, because we don't use divers to examine foreign boat bottoms and check (fondle) antifoulings. Honestly, is that any way for grown men to behave? :D

    I grew up in NZ from 49 to 53, whilst my father built up their pharmaceutical industry on behalf of Glaxo Laboratories. The Antipodean nations were proper places to be then, but now Earl's Court in London has more testosterone than all of Brisbane. That includes the Sheilas. :D I am assuming you are usually there and not in Suzhou, freezing your **** off.

    Please do continue in your efforts to reinvent the wheel and come up with an alternative antifouling product on the cheap. It'll keep you from playing in the traffic for a while. Copper filings indeed! What will you think of next? :D :D

    Pericles
     
  4. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,640
    Likes: 124, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1802
    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    well, I have this idea that we can actually fly, not on our own mind you, but in a thing called an aeroplane, to be built with lightweight canvas for wings and an internal combustion engine that actually burns petrochemical fuels to drive a propeller through the air, but everyone tells me, simply , it will not fly.

    I like to keep on dreaming anyhow....I have heard the Yankies are trying to do the same.....

    (or should this be on the drivel thread)
     
  5. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,640
    Likes: 124, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1802
    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    Thanks Pericles.....being a learned man yourself (you are the one that built the Partheon if my memory is right), you would understand the inquisitive mind.

    Always remember.....
     
  6. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Absobloodylutely!
     
  7. Roly
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 508
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 222
    Location: NZ

    Roly Senior Member

    Nero, how are you getting on with the DIY antifouling?
    From my investigations spherical Cu is the best to use as it allows the Cu/epoxy mixture to flow at high concentrations of Cu. Also, when you are cutting back,the spheres have depth (as opposed flakes). Three coats are
    bare minimum.
    It did surprise me, as well,that Coppercoat used a hydroEpoxy as it is no-where as water resistant as regular 100% solids. It is way expensive here and I have been buying epoxy at boat rate so it seems ludicrous to pay more for essentially the same!
    It is just that the grain size/distribution, is crucial for best loading. 100 mesh (45micron) and 300 mesh (150micron) spherical are readily available. I guess I will just have to run some tests to get it right. Proportions seem to be 2kg Cu/litre of resin. And it looks a 1/1 mix on the aquaEpoxy so I guess that makes it 1kgCu/litre of mixed resin. AquaEpoxy is less viscous so would be easier to use than 100% solids. I could sieve some coppercoat product to determine particle size......seems a little naughty. I am a extremely unfinancial mortal (strapped for cash) so WTF!
    I will be following your efforts with interest!

    Pericles, I appreciate your rationale in "just buy it". But I have a sh*t load of
    105 left over, and buying more ain't in the financial program.Besides, buying
    aquaEpoxy when you can use the real deal don't add up to me.
     
  8. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,640
    Likes: 124, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1802
    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    emmm. Thinking about this idea again if I may, any thoughts from the forum about using brass dust. Brass being copper and zinc, the zinc would disolve out leaving exposed copper on a reasonably simple timespan.... or am i up the creek.
     
  9. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    The reason why Coppercoat works is that the epoxy is water miscible. On immersion, sea water attacks the exposed pure copper powder, causing the formation of cuprous oxide. This highly effective antifouling agent deters growth until the surface degrades further to become cupric hydrochloride. This final copper form is highly unstable, and is washed away by the movement of the yacht, thereby removing any accumulating silt or slime. This automatically reveals a fresh copper rich surface, whereby the process recommences.

    http://www.coppercoat.com/how-it-works.htm

    Aquarius Marine Coatings Coppercoat anti-fouling is based on a water miscible epoxy resin, which is heavily loaded with pure grade (99%) fine copper powder and a mix of biocides. When fully cured, this hard wearing epoxy treatment, which contains no banned compounds and is fully certified by the Health and Safety Executive (No. 7532), forms a durable coating that offers exceptional long term resistance to marine fouling.

    The 105 locks away the copper. You'd be better off using graphite powder to protect the 105 from UV light, for all the antifouling effect you'll get from copper grit. Still, it's your call.:D

    Pericles
     
  10. Roly
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 508
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 222
    Location: NZ

    Roly Senior Member

    Don't get me wrong.I am not disputing that it works, just some of their claims are contradictory. Seeing as I have a new strip planked hull I am going for as much film build of 100% solid epoxy ( ie no entrapped solvent,phenols,watermisciple agents) as possible. I figured if I stick another 250 microns of 100% epoxy over what I already have it constitutes more of a barrier. OK, so the trade off is less leaching more cutting back by hand.

    "Furthermore, the inherent waterproofing qualities of the epoxy ensure that a treatment of Coppercoat will help prevent osmosis in GRP craft and offer extra protection against corrosion in steel vessels."

    Not what west says about aquaEpoxy.
    If it requires water to permeate to form the cupric hyrochloride how does it help stop osmosis?
    I guess the bottom line is you are trying to optimise an antifoul. Not an antifoul and a barrier coat in one., which will only do a half *** job for each.
    Pericles, ya not bad at bouncing ideas off, but I can't give ya any more points, Jeff is telling me to spread it round!
    BTW Aint much UV below the water line and use 207 hardener + pigment and some elbow grease! ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Roly,

    The manufacturers of modern GRP boats are hoping that VinylEster resins and vacuum infusion will eliminate the free styrene effect that creates "Osmosis.

    http://www.yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm

    Certainly, you should thoroughly encapsulate the strip built hull inside out with glass cloth and West System, as thick as you like. Think of Coppercoat primarily as an antifouling agent, that by its nature, will also act as an additional waterproofing barrier for 10+ years. Then it's time to recoat. I hate elbow grease!!:eek:

    UV damages unprotected Epoxy in fewer than three months. :D Sailboat bottoms get exposed whilst heeling. :D :D Catamarans for ever?

    Fair winds,

    Pericles
     
  12. nero
    Joined: Aug 2003
    Posts: 624
    Likes: 13, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 112
    Location: Marseille, France / Illinois, US

    nero Senior Member

    The copper nickel flakes have been delivered to the place the boat is being built. I will not be there for another 2 months.

    Until that time I can not write much.

    The price was US$16.30 a pound. I bought 100 lbs. If I understand my friend who recieved the frieght, "It is in one bucket that ways a ton"

    If my calculations are correct (they seldom are) I will be able to roll or spread on 40 liters of copper-epoxy. 50/50 mix by volume. .5 mm thick (which is an overkill). Will start rolling it on and when I get a good build I will stop. The resin is Epon 813 and the curing agent is Epon 3072. The barrier coat below the antifouling is a flow coat of Epon 828 (uscomposites thick epoxy)

    The decisive advantage of copperepoxy is that I can apply it now. I will not put the boat into the water for a few more years. (real slow builder)

    US nickel coins are made of 75% copper and 25% nickel. Each coin ways 5 grams. Cost is US$0.05 each. This works out to $8,200/kg. ... Well it was a thought.

    thanks to everyone who helped develop the thread.
     

  13. nero
    Joined: Aug 2003
    Posts: 624
    Likes: 13, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 112
    Location: Marseille, France / Illinois, US

    nero Senior Member

    correction

    US nickel coins are made of 75% copper and 25% nickel. Each coin ways 5 grams. Cost is US$0.05 each. This works out to $250/kg. ... Well it was a thought.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.