Business Opportunity

Discussion in 'Services & Employment' started by genuinemarine, Mar 16, 2004.

  1. Looking for boat designs to build boats in China.

    Favourite labor cost, an rich supply of qualified yacht craftsmen make China the top choice for building the quality yachts. More and more yacht builders are now on the way to this wonderful land: China and you got to catch the train.

    Genuien Marine Inc is now representing some of the best boatyards in China to look for the oppotunity of building yachts. These Chinese boatyards have modern facilities, good locations and experienced craftsmen who are able to delivery top quality yachts for you.

    If you have a good and proven yacht design to build or looking for quality yachts to sell and buy , Genuine Marine Inc could help find a good match of yacht builder in China for you and help realize your dream in a quick, professional and economical way.

    Do to hesite and let your dream slip away.
  2. CDBarry
    Joined: Nov 2002
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    CDBarry Senior Member

    Why don't you go ahead and come up with a design and offer it?

    The US market is not custom yacht friendly. Most people want off-the-shelf, and want to touch the boat at a show. Few will buy an unbuilt boat, even from a prestigious yard, much less one from an unknown yard. This is called a "pig in a poke" - an object in a bag supposed to be a pig, but you have to buy it before you can see it. Find a broker and a designer, put out some cash and build an example, show it and then build some more.
  3. betelgeuserdude
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    betelgeuserdude Junior Member

    Why keep this up? Why not find some economically driven yacht designer in China? Certainly they must exist.

    I'm on the Pacific rim too. I saw a lot of vessels imported from East Asia which failed in every respect to be "world class". Some were even reputed to be designs which were STOLEN from American yacht designers. A design, embellished with third-world materials and techniques, and even then ATTRIBUTED to the designer from whom it was stolen can be detrimental to the designer, even one with a well earned, and long standing reputation. Sorry, the sting has not yet worn off.

    Then there's the very fact that China remains a communist regime. How is a designer to seek recourse if he/she is wronged? What pressure is there to bear? Quite simply, NONE.

    Hong Kong has exhibited some decent work (still with ideosyncratic problems), but Hong Kong has become China yet again. Taiwan too, has put out some good work (and a lot of bad), but is viewed as being under constant threat from the Mainland. Political instability within these two boatbuilding locations has an incredibly strong deterent effect on business relations. The downside potential well exceeds that of the upside.

    I can think of many, many other more suitable locations, with higher quality materials and labor availability than China. Some of us believe that "you get what you pay for". When China produces a world class yacht, utilizing authentic products, and honorable techniques, the world will come knocking at your door. The onus falls on China.

  4. Your Message

    You talk like a politician instead of a boater like the others.

    You sound like you are an expert on China but judging from your subjective comment about China, You know nothing about this country indeed and have you ever been in this country?Maybe 10 years ago.

    Do you know Cheoylee, Ocean Alexandra,Nordhavn, Offshore, Selene,Albin just name a few? Do you know where these boats are be built now?

    Are you in boat business?
  5. betelgeuserdude
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    Location: Rainier, Oregon

    betelgeuserdude Junior Member

    Genuien, I have indeed heard of those manufacturers, and I think that I was more than generous in noting some of the good work put out by the rare exceptions. My fair assessment stands.

    I have lived aboard, repaired, and cruised aboard my Richards designed Cheoy Lee 32', for close to ten years.

    I am a professional boatbuilder, so yes, I think that I can speak with some authority. I've never been to China. Your country seems to be well represented by the poor quality vessels upon which I have worked. Take solace in the fact that I have also worked on some very good boats built in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

    If the political situation in Taiwan and Hong Kong improve, I would consider a vessel's construction with authentic components (no counterfeits), and highly supervised labor, in a quality environment. Until such time, I would never consider doing business with a Chinese company, either as a customer, a designer, an investor, or in any other capacity. You must admit, that a business relationship in China is by definition, a political relationship. I am not willing to risk my reputation and income potential on Chinese politics.

    No matter how many times you post the same message, my opinion of China will remain unchanged. Once again, the onus is on China.

  6. Hi, Jeff&DC

    Thanks a lot for your suggestion and reply.

    I personally think is a website in which those who love boating exchange useful information and everybody belongs to this category in the world is free to give his comment and useful information here. However I believe everybody in this forum will agree that whoever commends here and whatever he says he should be responsible for what he says. I will be responsible for what I have said in this forum and will never give any irresponsible comment about something if I do not know the real situation or experience it myself. I will also respect be polite to the one who knows how to respect and be polite the others.becomesThis is the philosophy of my life and business.

    After Jeff's suggestion to me, I can easily find that Mr DC's second message becomes soft a lot. I am not going to change Mr DC's opinion of China by putting messages here and I think the following fact will give everybody here what is the real case:

    At first, I am not going to tell you that Mr DC is totally wrong. I admit that there are some problems in the boats built in China.

    1. Nearly 95% of the boats from China to U.S.A are built by shipyards in Taiwan or Hongkong. As you may know that Taiwan and Hongkong have totally different social systems from that in mainland of China. Taiwan and Hongkong are capitalist community and have a very high level of democracy and freedom which they copied from U.S.A and Europe. You can easy find this in the latest Presidential Election in Taiwan these days. In the light of the above facts most of the boats were not built in the communist regime as Mr DC said. The other 5% are built by the shipyards in mainland of China but these shipyards are managed by people from Taiwan and Hongkong which are not communist regime. I could not see so much definite connection between the social system and the quality of the product as Mr DC said.

    2. Cheoylee, Ocean Alexandra, Horizon, Defever and so on have been cooperating with world famous designers in the states and Europe for years and I think they are getting along with each other very well. Most of the other shipyards are just making OEM boats like Nordhavn,Fleming, Marlow,Johnson, McKinna, for the importers and designers in the states. They are also doing not bad.

    3. Besides those big names I mentioned in my last message which are now being built in the mainland of China, Grand Banks, Trader from UK and even the Brunwick are now sourcing some partners in the mainland of China now.I can give another list of at leat 5 international boat builders who are now moving to China. How do you think their judgement of China and the quality of the boat and do you think they are out of mind?

    4. Just give you some ideas:Toyata, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, GM, Wolfwagen, Buick just name a few are having their cars built in China now. How do you think their judgement?

    I am not here to blame anybody but as a native Chinese I think I should clear the air here a little bit so that there is no misunderstand between us. There is lots of differences in the culture, history, ideology,system between China and the states. Currently there are misunderstandings, discrepancies, different views between these two peoples I belive the honesty and willingness to communicate are those ways we should use to solve those problems including the one we are having here.I just came back from a U.S.A visit shortly and it was my first time to be there. Most of the Amercian I met during the visit are very nice to us and willing to help.

    Mr DC I would sincerely invite you to pay a visit to China to experience the people, the culture, the places and the yards here and I believe you will definitely meet good and bad people, things. However there is something I am also pretty sure: You will find China is not as complicated as you had previous thought.

    We,Chinese, have a very famous saying: Experience turns out truth.

    Sorry for my bad manner in my last message and your comments is most welcome.
  7. betelgeuserdude
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    Location: Rainier, Oregon

    betelgeuserdude Junior Member


    Thanks for your last post which was quite well written, and informative. I think that this kind of dialogue can be much more beneficial to your cause than your initial posts.

    I would very much welcome the opportunity to visit China and experience everything that you have set forward. I have desired to visit China for many years, and someday I shall.

    Please except my sincere apologies if you feel that I have insulted your culture, history, ideology, or people. This was not my intent.

    Perhaps you would like to share some of the specific benefits of doing business in China. If I were looking to build a business relationship with a boatbuilder, what would be the benefit of a Chinese relationship, rather than say, a South African relationship? How can quality control in China compare with that of New Zealand? Can a Chinese production yard compete with a North American production yard; both in production and profit, with a North American destination? Basically, what sets China apart? Why China?

  8. My Last Message

    Hi, DC

    First of all I would like to remind you that I have been very active in this website instead of "varnish" as you mentioned in your last message. You did see my message to Mr Venen right?

    "However I believe everybody in this forum will agree that whoever comments here and whatever he says he should be responsible for what he says. " Please always keep the above rule in your mind.

    Secondly I am most willing to proceed our previous discussion once you could confirm with me whether my message regarding your personal ideas of the social system, design ..... reflects the real truth. The reason for this is that I think we should solve our existing disagreements before we move to the next topic.

    Thirdly the only reason why I have not replied to your last message is that I know lots of yacht building in China but very little about South Africa and New Zealand. Based on that I do not think it is wise for me to give any subjective idea here. What I can say now is that No matter in which country you are going to build your boat you should try to learn the local culture, ideology, resources available and how the local people acts. Once you achieve that you should rely on your personal ability, skills, inter-person communication methods to manage the project, risks. The business opportunities have always been there and they only belong to those who really know how to catch.

    Love to see you comment but I could not promise I could response upon receipt of your message as per your wish.
  9. betelgeuserdude
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    betelgeuserdude Junior Member

    I can see that we are done George. It appears that the sale of snake oil is more your line of business, since you still have failed to give some insight as to "why China".

    With Beijing breathing down the neck of Taiwan, I am even less willing to consider China as a business partner in any sense. Face it George, without addressing my (and I dare say other's) very real concern over the political situation within the communist regime of China, you are failing to take me seriously. This is disrespectful. Furthermore, you have wasted my time.

    Good luck, George.

  10. I do not care whether you are done or not. If you want to have some insight to "Why China" you got to do it self cos I do not have such obligation.

    It appears that the sale of nationalism and politics is more your line of business.

    This is a boatdesign website and if you want to discuss politics find somewhere else.

    You are failing to take me seriously, respectfully from the very beginning and you initiated this political conversation so who waste whose time???
  11. betelgeuserdude
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    betelgeuserdude Junior Member

    Still no answer George.

    Why China?

    If you are asserting that China would be a good business partner despite the fact that Chinese politics is a valid concern, you are doing yourself and your country a disservice. If you can't address "why China", you have failed to sell China. Why don't you scroll back up and look at my specific questions concerning China's viability as compared to the other countries I mentioned?

    Like it or not, George, you and China are competing with South Africa. There have been some very good boats coming out of South Africa, at compelling prices. The business and political environment is superior in every way to China. The South African boatbuilding community is building on it's successes.

    New Zealand has a long standing reputation for superior craftsmanship, a tremendous amount of knowledge, and rock steady political and business climate.

    Canada, Europe, Australia, South America all offer their own benefits to the designer or financier.

    Here in my native United States of America, our boatbuilding community is quite well positioned to provide near surgical environments, utilizing authentic and modern materials, fabricated and assembled by skilled workers. Our dollar is favored by many other countries, the world over. We have proven our ability to build to the highest imaginable standard, and also maintain a competitive productivity advantage. Our necessary safety requirements for workers assures civil rights, and our legal system guarantees the rights of all parties, from the designer's intellectual property, to the contract between the builder and client. After the boat has been launched, the owner is afforded the right to seek compensation for any errors, or failures on the part of the builder or designer. This kind of legal regulation has a way of enforcing honor and integrity.

    I'm still talking about boats here, George.

    Now, why China?

    How can we reconcile the valid concerns of the political situation in Taiwan and Hong Kong, as they apply to the boatbuilding industry? Do you not care to address this issue? How is a yacht designer or boatbuilding financier to do business in China? What legal recourse is available to the designer or financier who is wronged by business or political interests? There are indeed some builders in China who are familiar with these concerns and who must face them on a regular basis. How do they handle these concerns? How can you play matchmaker, George, if you are unwilling to address a party's concerns?

    Still talking boats. Why China?

  12. Hi, DC (Until now I still do not know your real name):

    It seems that we are not done as you said and I am most happy to proceed this debate with you under the judgment of everybody in the forum.

    As mentioned in my very first message to you, I doubted that you had been in China and your confirmation in your reply proved my judgment. Your less knowledge of the current situation in China and less experience of dealing with Chinese yacht builders are the basis for your subjective comment of this country.

    I admit there are some political problems in China but this country is becoming open, free and democratic by and by. However my personal comments does not matter and they following suggestion might be fair to each other:

    I have listed quite a lot of American companies which are dealing with Chinese yacht builders and why not give them a phone call to see what these authorities say about the political situation here in China.

    Why not talk with those who are the designers of the Nordhavn, Cheoylee, Horizon, Ocean Alexandra and so on for their opinion about how their designs are being treated? If you need any help in finding out who are the designers please feel free to drop me an email. Maybe what they will tell you proves me wrong but I will feel much more comfortable to accept than how I am feeling now about a lecture given by someone who has not been in China and has never dealt with Chinese yacht building.

    Back to your previous comment of the politic situation and designer's recourse, could you please give us some real examples instead of your personal ideas? Prove what you have said with real facts and let the authority and those really experienced tell their comments.

    Back to your subjective judgment about my personal ability of selling China, as you can see from my message to Mr Neven in the last few years I have successfully sold quite a few boats into U.S.A, Europe, Australia and set up a strong dealer network in these two continents. When the time comes I will list here all the business reference in your country so that everybody in this forum could see who are responsible for what he has said.

    Yes, lots of American shipyard do a real nice job and I can also see lots of top quality megayachts are turned out from England, Netherlands, German, Italy and other European countries. In my recent visit to U.S.A I also saw some American boats did not reflect what you have said.

    Back to your question about "Why China" my arguments will be the following:

    1. The labor cost
    Building a yacht is definitely a labor-concentrated process and with the roaring increased labor cost in your country it is far more economic to build the yachts in those countries in which the labor cost is low. China definitely has the most favorite rate of labor in this world now.

    2. The available shipbuilding technology, quality personnel and the environments.
    With a history of more than 2000 years, China has been building boats for centuries and this has helped China accumulate enough knowledge and techniques of building quality boats, cultivate a huge reserve of quality personnel in shipbuilding, set up a very strong and good infrastructure for shipbuilding. According to the international statistics China is now among the leading contractors of building quality vessels for international ship owners. In the term of building yachts which emphasizes more on the interior workmanship, carpenter's work, these are what Chinese are good at and we have been doing these for centuries. Take a look at those Chinese treasures and antiques which are kept in the museums of bigger U.SO.A cities and you can easily see these.

    3. A good availability of quality marine products and relating service.
    China is becoming a "World Factory" and you can easily find everything you want here.
    From the raw materials like resin, fiberglass, marine hardware to generators, engines you could purchase most of the parts you need at more reasonable prices and keep your cost down. We have dozens of shipbuilding institutes who can offer their professional service in building a quality yachts and it all depends whether you could locate these and how you are going to use these sources.

    4. Supporting the American marine industry.
    As a boat builder here in China, We calculate through our previous experience that the materials and equipments for building a boat covers more than 60% of the whole cost of a boat. Most material and equipment of this 60%, such as engines, generators, hot water heater, Chargers and so on are imported from U.S.A. We all Chinese yacht builders as the customers of your American manufacturers are now expanding and supporting your marine industry.

    5. The favorite investment environment and security situation in China.
    China has been regarded by the international authority as one of the best and safe places for the international investment
    That's why lots of international companies have set their office and factories here in China and lots of companies are on the way as well as the yacht builders. Besides of the big car makers and Yacht builders I mentioned in my last message, We have the same Wal-Mart, Sam Club, Carrefour, IBM, Microsoft as you have home and nearly all the big names you have home.

    6. Making yacht a in-expensive item so normal American can enjoy the fun of boating.
    By building boats in China and some other Asian countries, Yacht is not a luxury item which only belongs to the rich people any more. More people could have the opportunity to enjoy boating.

    You really got to have you updated about what is happening now in China instead of sitting and commenting by watching TV and learning to what the other says.

    We have police, courts, law offices here in China and lots of foreign law offices have their branches here. Find a lawyer who you can trust and ask him draft an agreement for you sign this with the yacht builders You will definitely have your interests protected.

    In a word, the opportunity and resources are always there and only those who are qualified and able to handle could make his mark. I believe some foreign companies had some problems in dealing with Chinese companies and some are really the faults of our Chinese. But I do believe there are some companies who are benefiting from doing business with Chinese companies like those who are importing Chinese yachts now as well as those who are well prepared to start.

    I will spend more time on your question tomorrow.
  13. rtywa
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    rtywa New Member

    Chinese yards

    Chinese yards...

    Attached Files:

  14. Chinese Yacht Builder

    How about these pictures of the Chinsese Yacht Builders?

    Attached Files:

  15. Hi, DC:

    Some American professionals and your government have done some research about China Yacht Building.

    Get yourself one copy of Boating Industry International Magazine, Issue May 2000.
    See page 58-60

    Get yourself one copy of Boating Industry International Magazine, Issue April 2001.
    See page 22-25

    If you could not get the above drop me an email I will email you a copy of this.

    See how those authorities say!
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