Budget long range cruiser fit for Pacific crossing - Ideas ?

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by KeithO, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    Location: Michigan

    KeithO Junior Member

    I'm currently 51 and hoping to retire in 5-6 years and then embark on some long distance cruising in the Pacific.

    There have been several members of my family who have taken to offshore sailing and racing and I have had some personal experience of offshore sailing in South Africa many years ago where I was fortunate to survive a 16 year storm.... barely... I have an uncle/aunt who did offshore racing for years and a cousin who is professionally involved in the sailboat industry in the BVI's.

    The long and short of it is that I think I will skip the whole wind power lark and go with an efficient diesel powered boat along the lines of the old PNW Troller line of thinking. High L/B ratio, long waterline length, built as light as humanly possible without getting into carbon fiber and finished in a very utilitarian standard (minimal wood and varnish of any kind).

    George Bueller and his Diesel Ducks seem to have started from the right point but the design seems to have morphed to facilitate the needs of "slip sailers" with lots of beam, tall superstructure to cram in lots of space for expensive gadgets while keeping the overall length in limits to reduce marina fees. Current versions can hardly be described as being affordable, despite the low labor countries where they are built.

    The Dashew FPB's have always represented the upper end of the segment with true "yacht finish" with all the custom cabinetry and finishes, but with a pricetag in the several millions. I was honestly surprised that they hung it up, one would have thought that such a business would be sold or taken over by the next generation. It seems that the market for such vessels is ever growing since much of the worlds economic growth is concentrated in the hands of the wealthiest few....

    SV Seeker is a 70 something origami style steel vessel, but her displacement is many times what is needed for a couple and I don't think I could finish a project of that magnitude in my lifetime.

    I dont think I want to get into a multihull, but perhaps by using some of the things multihulls use (light weight, long L/B) one could end up with an efficient hull with minimal ballast which can run higher than its supposed hull speed without ridiculous fuel consumption. Composite material comprising mainly UNI and BID so that one can have a more ideally shaped hull without hard chines, while avoiding the weight of mat based laminates.

    Low onboard water storage, water maker with backup, relatively small engine, lots of solar panels on cabin roof, adequate fuel storage. Accommodations for 4-5 max and the extra 2-3 being bunks. Interior fit out with fiberglass faced foam boards instead of plywood, possible exception for interior decks. Most of the interior simply painted a light color for low maintenance and easy of repair.

    Thoughts ?
     
  2. nemier
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    nemier Specialist in long-range Expedition Yachts

    Hi Kieth,
    I specialize in Long Range Cruisers and can recommend vessels to suit any budget, and $budget$ seems a good place to start. The vessels you describe above range from around $300,000 to $3,000,000 but I'm unclear what your actual desired budget is?

    Also, are you intending to build new, or to pick up a Brokerage vessel? I often think about a building new budget long range cruiser to suit my own personal requirements and it would go something like this;

    1. Motorsailer design; single BETA engine for primary propulsion, with sails for propulsion assist, and emergency 'get-home' power, and stabilization
    2. Less than 40,000 lbs (18 Te)
    3. Aluminum material for a quick, robust, customizable, lightweight build
    4. 1000 usg (3800 litres) diesel
    5. Less than 49' (15 m) LOA
    6. Cooking with 'Gas'
    7. Heating with diesel - hydronic system
    8. to keep things simple - as many 12V electric systems as possible, with a single high-wattage inverter, and single robust battery charger
    9. 6 KW Northern lights generator (this will last the lifetime of the boat, and provide emergency power and 'piece-of'mind' when cruising remote destinations)
    10. Minimal electronics

    Basically it would look like a mini Artnautica with a sail rig. Dave Gerr has also drawn similar vessels, and Sam Devlin has some salty designs to base your dreams on too.

    There are many production boats already built that will do what you want, and if 'budget' is in mind, you could consider first generation Nordhavn, Kadey Krogen or Selene.
    Have you looked at a Nordhavn 46?
     
  3. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    Location: Michigan

    KeithO Junior Member

    Nemier, you sound very experienced.

    When I said budget, it would be a lot lower than production boats... I'm probably looking for <$100k and expecting to do almost all of the work myself. I would probably need help with layups given the time constraint, unless I could build up to doing vacuum infusion, starting with smaller parts and working up to the hull. If I recall, the infusion epoxy is even more expensive than the regular stuff. I will probably use a temporary building like one of the Farmtek Clearspan buildings on a concrete slab for my shop, which is likely to be on rented land close to the target launch site.

    I have considered steel and aluminum and would feel pretty confident about my ability to work with either, so long as it was a hard chine style design, but I think that may be a significant compromise in the case of a long distance efficient power cruiser. In my correspondence with Kurt Hughes of multihull fame, he drilled into me that weight matters and will kill the performance of a multihull. The only way they achieve the high K values that they do, which translate into lower drag and higher cruise is by being slender, lightweight (reduced wetted area) and having an optimal hull shape. Thus I think the only practical choice of material for me is a high modulus fiberglass and epoxy resin. In other words, Uni, Bid, PVC foam core and possibly some balsa. Whether cylinder molding can be used to make the hull halves is something to think about. Kurt swears by it and says it is one of the key factors in producing a smooth fair hull fast and at modest cost. He uses plywood, I would rather use foam core. Plywood has become really expensive and quality seems worse than ever since the financial crisis.

    I have seen little information published on the subject of monohulls being built as lightweight as possible, and very few manufacturers build long slender hulls of low profile as typified by the Dashew FPB class. Now I would not say the Dashew boats are lightweight by any means. Certainly they are not made from steel, but they are equipped with very extensive systems and all the glass on the upper deck is 3/4" thick. So I do believe that a more modest execution of such a boat is possible and could be a lot lighter without going short and squat. Getting the stability to where it needs to be could be an interesting problem given the narrow beam. Fin stabilizers could be very effective underway if one is running at 10-15 kts and if the entire exercise is to make any sense, one needs to be able to run at a good speed since the Diesel Ducks have been achieving 4nm/gal at 6kts for decades... Speed has always been one of the underlying requirements of the Dashews, since they felt that it allowed better exploitation of any good weather window, allowed for maneuvering around or away from dangerous weather and reduced overall exposure by shortening the time to make any given passage.

    On my background, I am an engineer. Not much experience with hydrodynamics, but certainly familiar with CAD, FEA and CFD. I own several of the books published by the Dashews and numerous other texts including all of the Glen L series of boatbuilding books. I have some time to get the design figured out, so I'd better get at it...
     
  4. nemier
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: North Vancouver, Canada

    nemier Specialist in long-range Expedition Yachts

    Hi Kieth,

    A great rule of thumb when talking about boats is: "Light weight, Fast, & Cheap". = you can only have two. You simply cannot have all three.
    I think you may have to increase your budget. Sub $100K is not going to do it I'm afraid, sorry. Kurt Hughes is a genius, and his build methods are superior, but not what I would call a simple build solution.

    If fact, I see some mixed messages in your posts. You mention simplicity, and low cost, and then DASHEW in the same sentence. The cheapest FPB for sale is currently $1.7M. Definitely worth it, but a different paradigm in our discussion above. Increase your length to increase your speed, but still keep the displacement hull, and keep your systems few, and low tech for repair. What systems you do decide on, buy the best you can afford. Compile a spreadsheet with some projected costs, but please ensure you have a large scotch at hand,,, you may need it ; )

    Looking forward to hear your thoughts.
     
  5. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    KeithO Junior Member

    Nemier, the only reason why I ever mention Dashew is because they defined the slender hull form, long overall length, minimal accommodations needed for fast passage and migrated those properties from their sailboats to their monohull powerboats. Others like Bueller seem to have started with Salmon trollers and over time they lost their way and caved to commercial pressure to build as much boat as possible to fit into a 46 foot slip...

    The only part of my build that is going to be unique and would have to be new is the hull. I cant see any way clear to re-purposing an existing hull to suit my task since longer boats have far more beam and ballast than would be needed (or wanted). I am OK with buying a used engine and transmission. I have no intention of having a sailing rig. Mast, rigging and sails are expensive and the hardware wears out/fatigues whether you use it or not. Optimizing solar efficiency suggests a wide separation between any tall objects and the cabin roof, which is one of the reasons most sailboats have very poor PV efficiency.
    [​IMG]

    The Dashew 97 has a significant solar array, which would be even better if they didn't have the flying bridge. I already have a 1.8kW PV array, I just need to figure out how to integrate as much of it as possible. I don't think I could avoid a radar system, but the advances in gps / moving map/weather over the last 20 years mean that one need not spend $50k in instrumentation unless you want to be a showoff.

    I think if the mission is defined as comfortable, efficient passage making for a couple, and installed systems are limited to only what is essential to meet that goal, I think the budget is totally realistic. If this is approached as a custom yacht build through a yard and they need to make a 30% margin on all new material and labor and possibly pay a salesman's commission, then no, the budget is not about to work.

    My thought is that I would work with a naval architect on the final design, once the hull form, drag, stability etc had been determined and deal with any weight overrun by stretching the length slightly if needed.
     
  6. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I reckon you can actually have all three of those, but safety and/or comfort will be sorely lacking.
     
  7. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    KeithO Junior Member

    First picture of the 64
    [​IMG]

    Comparison of fuel burns Dashew vs Nordhaven
    [​IMG]

    Underwater hull shape
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    LOD 64.95′ / 19.85m
    LWL 63.6′ / 19.4m
    Beam Deck 17.04′ / 5.22m
    Draft at half load (75,000 lbs/34 tons) Canoe Body 3.25′ / 1m
    Draft at half load (75,000 lbs/34 tons) Prop Skeg 4.5′ / 1.37m
    Full displacement 90,000 lbs /40,800 kg
    Fuel Capacity 3400 US Gallons / 12,800L
    Fresh Water Capacity 1800 US Gallons /6800 L
    Cruising Speed 9.25-10.0-knots
    Top Speed 10.5 knots
    Approximate Range 9.0 knots – 6400 NM
    9.5 knots – 5500 NM
     
  8. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    KeithO Junior Member

    Nordhavn 52
    [​IMG]

    LOA: 54′ 4″ / 16.56 M
    LWL: 48′ 3″ / 14.71 M
    BEAM: 16′ 1″ / 4.9 M
    DRAFT: 5′ 11″ / 1.8 M
    DISPL.: 90,000 lbs. / 40.82 MT
    FUEL CAPACITY: 1,740 gals. / 6586.6 L
    WATER CAPACITY: 400 gals. / 1,514.2 L
    HOLDING TANK CAPACITY: 120 gals. / 454.2 L
    GRAY WATER TANK CAPACITY: 110 gals. / 416.4 L


    Nordhavn 41
    [​IMG]

    LOA: 41′- 41/4” (12.60 m)
    LWL: 40-‘0″ (12.19 m)
    BEAM: 13′- 11” (4.24 m)
    BEAM W/L: 13’-4 1/2” (4.08m)
    DRAFT: 4’ 6.5″ (1.38 m)
    DISPL.: 43,300 LBS / 19.5 MT
    FUEL CAPACITY: 900 GALLONS (3407 L)
    WATER CAPACITY: 300 GALLONS (1,136 L)
    HOLDING TANK CAPACITY: 70 GALLONS (265 L)
    GRAY WATER CAPACITY: 70 GALLONS (265 L)
    A/B RATIO: 1.90/1
     
  9. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Nordhavns looks to be island hoppers for poor people who can't afford a boat design with enough fuel capacity or economy for their wished travels, so they carry jerry jugs everywhere and/or add tankage and bladers in the cockpit and to the walkways for this, even high up there, and so they end up adding 1,000 gals to the standard 1,740 of the 52' . . .

    Ocean Navigator, Jan. Feb. 2016 issue, Fuel to burn

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    ‘‘ . . . James and Jennifer on Dirona used similar sized bladders to Eden’s in the cockpit, but also added a custom 360-gallon bladder designed to fit snugly into their Portuguese bridge. Dirona has ocean-crossing range with her standard 1,750-gallon onboard tankage, but with the bladders full they can carry 2,710 gallons, which means 3,500-nm range is much easier to achieve. . . . ’’
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  10. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    As the thread title talks about budget and post #5 about building a new hull, when not going for ice then you can build George Buehler's 55' Idlewild in plywood, the 55' Ullin, or the a bit beefed up beam-freeboard-draft 55' Big Daddy Ullin, that is if the plans are still available after George's passing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    KeithO likes this.
  11. Angélique
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  12. Milehog
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    Milehog Clever Quip

    KeithO, first you must ask yourself whether you want to spend your golden years building a boat or to actually be out there on a boat.
     
  13. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    The fpb64 is not that slender when you consider most sailboat of any size are usually minimum of 3 to 1 length to beam, its less than 4-1.
    A great reason for its efficiency is the high deadrise angle of pic above but then you have to have complicated fin stabalizers to off set its motion.

    This is my idea similar to what you mention
     

    Attached Files:

  14. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    And Dave Gerr "Ironheart". This PDF goes into efficiency details. He put long bilge keels which i would avoid and make the hull bottom flatter and less top weight by lowering overall height which i did with my design above. With long length you get a much smoother motion to compensate for some gentle rolling but as i said that can be remedied somewhat by 2 points above
     

    Attached Files:


  15. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    I also believe Dave specified a 300hp engine (why?), plus layout is not to my liking
     
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