Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Yeah, but Fran uses polyester, rather than epoxy because of her allergy...and no-one I know woould ever recommend doing that for a home build.

    Epoxy has twice the strength of polyester resin, so you need less of it.

    I'm wondring if Ray's boats' laminates are desinged to allow for this difference, in which case using epoxy and a bit of structural carbon could eable you to cut back on the glass and epoxy....

    Not suggesting you should, just askin'..

    Ray specs 2 X layers of 400gsm triax for the hull of the S18, which doesn't look over constructed to my mind, but I'm neither an engineer nor a laminate expert.

    What do others think?
     
  2. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    ThomD, if you read my post, all say I LOVE SCARAB, but NOT plans. If i have AVALON 9 or SCARAB 32, i probaly will build them, but, as just B28 plans, that is the boat.
    Never said one is better than other, just different. I imagine the SCARAB are excelents plans, because you can see excelent workmanship in the final ship.
    But, BUCCANEER are like buld a goodlooking classic cars, a FORD COBRA 427. You know is an OLD design (Compared with a 2013 toyota corrolla), but, still the people see around when they are running, you can get fun, speed and some beautifull girls :)
    I will NEVER say any bad words about SCARAB, i admire these guys. But, TO DISCOUNT or TO NOT DISCOUNT is between they and me, not other.
    You do not know if the shipping cost by FEDEX to Americas, and the printer cost in the printer shop HERE will arise the total cost UP to 500 USD or more, and better option is to buy other NOW READY PAPER PLANS for around 300 USD. I will never, ever say nothing again any comment of other people in the forum (is an insult, of massive proportions), and i deserve the same to me. I am just asking information to build a beautifull boat, at the other side of the world. maybe i need the opinion of 1 millions of advisors to see this is not the boat i must build. i am NOT a proffesional designer like others here, but, even this is a science, not a rocket science, more like ART and nobody has the 100% of the truth.
    So, i want the help of people that had built it to share all modifications, improvements or design change THEY THINK must be done. i will analize to see if do it or not.
    And the problems of the weight of Fiberglass, if i do not bad remember, is around 1,53 Kf/M2 each mm. With polyester and normal wooven and mat fiber. The only problem will be less payload? or will affect dinamic?
     
  3. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    With multihulls, weight is more crucial than with monos, so extra weight in the fibreglass will have both a payload and performance effect. A reduction in both.

    Hulls built entirely (or almost entirely) from fibreglass matt need to be much thicker than the equivalent hull made with woven fibreglass cloth, with carbon cloth being the lightest and strongest (but also the most expensive).

    Layers of matt between glass and/or carbon are often included in infusion lay-ups to assist with the diffusion and spread of the resin.

    Matt is often used as the backing to the gelcoat laid first in fully-moulded hulls. I'm not exactly sure why....but there must be a reason. ;)

    It's horses for courses. Decide what you want and what you can afford and what you are capable of achieving....for example, if you have woodworking skills, then building with ply might be the better way to go....unless you have concerns about the longevity of ply and its resale value, in which case you might opt for a pre-glassed foam multi-chine panel structure....

    If time and money are no object you might opt for a fully moulded glass hull, requiring the manufacture of a one-off female mould in which to build the hull/s.

    Lightweight, good resale and easy to build at a reasonable cost for someone with minimal skills...??? Foam panels with glass on the inside pre-glassed prior to cutting is probably the "best" answer.

    And both Buccaneer and Scarab hulls are well suited to this, and both were originally designed for plywood "panel" build.

    As to the classic car comparison, I think the old AC Cobra analogy is pretty good. Old technology used to make a car built to an earlier design style and materials built down to a light weight and souped-up for performance.

    But remember that the original Ford Mustang had drum brakes, so it didn't stop very well and therefore wasn't terribly safe.....

    It's probably pertinent to point out that not everything is rosy in the "old boat" world, unless you are looking at it through spectacles tinted that colour!

    Be sure of what you are getting so you are not dissatisifed with it afterwards.
     
  4. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    Buzzman, i think as i am thinking is the same that other b24/B28 builders, we want to build buccaneer. If we want to build other, i ensure you we can get the resources, plans, questions, etc to build them. So, this is the buccaneer forum, we want to build buccaneers. Good design, good pedigree, goodlooking boat. None of the other boats are bad or better, just different.
    If you were to build a buccaneer, 24 or 28, and why? i want to build it fast (fast build, not fast boat, even these are fast), so, the 28 is JUST 4 foot more longer or more complex?
    Where can we find DETAILS pictures of the building? in my opinion, build some boat is 50% structure and 50% details.
     
  5. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Alas, as most Buccs were built 20-30 years ago, before digital photography, it is unlikely you'll find any build pics on the web.

    And most builders will not readily part with their only hard copies of photos, so unless you can A) find someone who built one and documented it in period, and B) convince them to scan the pics and send them to you, I doubt that build photos will be easy to come by.

    Best you can hope for is to look closely at the pics of those rebuilding a Bucc and take hints from this.

    If you need an "IKEA" step-by-step 'Instruction Manual' you are never going to find one.

    You must decide that you *can* build it before you commence, and then puzzle out the details as you go along.

    It would probably make sense also to study pics of boats for sale - many have been referenced here, but as these are on ebay, the pics will probably not be available any longer....so keep looking...you'll find a few B24s come up for sale, and very occasionally a B33.

    Me personally, I don't really want to build a Bucc - I want a boat with folding akas - like Farrier or Scarab, so I can easily fit on trailer and easily launch, easily fit in marina etc.

    But I do like them, and the build ideas on this forum keep me interested.

    I think between teh two Buccs, the B24 for day sailing and 'maybe' an overnight occasionally; the B28 for day sailing and definite overnights fairly often, maybe coastal cruising for a week or two. A family of four might be a bit crowded on the B24, but would be more comofrtable on a B28.

    Like I said, decide what you *need* first, add in what you *want* (or would 'like') and then choose.

    If you are not confident you can build either boat, buy one second hand and restore it, which is much easier, and probably cheaper..!
     
  6. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Just to be clear----a B28 is not just a stretched B24. It is a totally different design. It's parameters are different and construction method is different.
    The B28 is constructed on a strongback, like other conventional Tris.
    The B24 has a construction method which only needs a couple of low stools to support the elements of the hulls while under construction. Hence it's cheaper and quicker build. Neither of the boats need any of the tedious fairing, which a round bilge Glass or F/glass hull does.
    F/Glass Mat is to be avoided in multihull construction as the fibrous mass of the matt absorbs too much resin and results in a weaker strength/ weight ratio. Foam/fibreglass panels, (polyester or vinylester resin) are much better in this regard, and can replace sheet plywood if wanted. Plain F/Glass (Glasscloth +Polyester resin) is not stiff enough unless laid up in thicker layers, in which case it is once again too heavy.
    Excess weight reduction is an absolute must in multihull boats----but not at the expense of structural integrity.
    The B28 is cleverly designed so that all support members are installed while the
    hull is upside down on the strongback. This enables all the horizontal interior panels and decks to simply be dropped in place and their edges sealed with epoxy, once the planked hull is turned over.
    The underslung rudder enables a 10hp outboard to be mounted conveniently on a standard lifting bracket bolted to the transom.

    Lock really knew what he was doing. The B24 was the best selling of all his designs. Curiously the B28 wasn't. People tended to jump straight from the B24 to the B33. Horses for courses again. :D
    My B28 was the best boat I have ever built and owned.
     
  7. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Did you keep any build photos, I wonder..??
     
  8. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Yes and I have already shown them on these forums. :cool:
     
  9. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    I read other forum that B24 needs around 450 hours to build it. And th b28? REAL HOURS from first cut to maiden. one axioma 1 kg boat = 1 contruction hour.
    And, i can find Polyester, Vinylester and Epoxi-Amine resin. Can i use Poly or Vinyl? i read in boat building only Epoxy, due other absorb some humidity, worst if in salt water.
     
  10. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    Bucs limitations

    PH, I have a buc 24 and have rebuilt various parts of it, but I have not built a complete boat. (mine is over 40 years old so it sometimes needs some renovation) I have also been looking at a b-33 and i have studied the 28 plans carefully.
    First, I consider the 24 a big daysailor/overnight camper suitable for a friendly couple and maybe one or two small children. It can't carry more than that in space or weight. A 24 is one of the easiest and quickest to build of anything close to its size and performance- IF!!! you stick to the plans and build it out of plywood. Flat foam/glass panels would be possible and probably better for the floats, but you would be designing and "testing" as you go. The alloy cross tubes are part of the "Crowther KISS" system and trying to design and build composite replacements is really expensive and would add lots of time to the project. Each 19' alloy tube and stay weighs about 90 lbs complete, and it is very hard to improve on- and both could be made up in a day. Mine are over 40 years old and are still just fine.
    A B-28 is at the top of my boat list, but i have not found any for sale in the US- not even to look at- just the pictures from the Texas rebuild. I am quite sure that a 28 would take at least four times as long to build as a 24, and prices out at least three times as expensive. Still an easy to construct design, but a used F or C 27 starts to look like the better deal in that range.
    I have been looking hard at used B-33s, and they are very interesting, but for my use, i would prefer a smaller boat. The 33s are a big step up.
    Please take this for what it is- just my opinion. :)
    Bruce
     
  11. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    Bruce, you are right.
    B24 is fast built than B28, arounf 4 times, so, if you were build a B28, with not B33.
    To me, B24 is too small and maybe B33 too big, but, if i will spend 2000 to 3000 hours building a boat, i will consider B33 or other new design as the SCARAB 32.
    But, as i have sent to some people in this forum, i now need a boat to use it while building the BIG CRUISER (I also want to take with me a CH701 plane, all food for 4 months, all cloths, perform a trip around the world in 4 months, with a very big boat, but, my bank account is not as large as my mind, so, i will need to build my own, 28-38 boat) i was thinking to build a SIMPLY BUILT CATAMARAN, some boat as Coral Sea 25, Bora Bora 28, some wood design less than 35, this boats, i hope to build within 4 months, and then concentrate all my energy building big one. Oldsailor i imagine that have more than one boat, and appear they love it, so, me too.
     
  12. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

  13. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    In what way :?:
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  14. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    OS7, which is faster to build? i imagine B24 is more capable for cruising, but, W22 is a good start point? For a weekend trip and coastal cruiser..
     

  15. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    It's a moot point----because the B24 plans are no longer available.

    The W22 is a good design and is available. It is also a trimaran and made in F/glass, which is what you wanted in the first place. :cool:
    My son had a Dragonfly 25, which I sailed on and I found it a lovely little boat, so you should listen to what Mike Waters has to say.

    The B24 is an all plywood design which is less complicated than foam/glass sandwich. But having made three Buccs in wood followed by three B33s in F/Glass I much preferred the latter. However, the ply versions are simpler to build by someone who has no previous experience in boat building. The first boat ever I built was a 7ft pram dinghy, an exercise which I would recommend to anyone who has never built a boat before.
     
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