bouyancy certificate

Discussion in 'Stability' started by colfar5033, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. colfar5033
    Joined: Jul 2009
    Posts: 51
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 65
    Location: SOUTH AFRICA

    colfar5033 Junior Member

    Morning all

    Wonder if anyone can shed some light on my question? what is a bouyancy
    certificate and does a yacht need to have one or is it just for speed boats?
    i stay in south africa and also wonder what is the norm in the rest of the
    world!

    cheers colin
     
  2. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,257
    Likes: 144, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1806
    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Goeie middag Colin.

    According to SAS all sailing dinghy's should have a buoyancy certificate.
    SAMSA Marine Notice 13 - 9.2 (note 4) on the other hand states that sailing vessels over 7 meter in length are exempted from buoyancy and must have life rings (1 per two persons) in lieu of buoyancy....

    A buoyancy certificate is a piece of paper (with colour photos of the boat attached/printed on) that must comply to the guidelines of SAMSA and I actually uses the SAMSA template for certificates I issue. On boats that are mainly used inland on rivers and lakes, the category is "R" and must be fitted with 30% buoyancy based on the maximum loaded condition of the boat. Boat going to sea - Category E, D, C etc must have 60% buoyancy fitted as with the Cat R but with people included in gross weight.

    When appointing someone to install buoyancy, make sure of his credentials (I recently removed 28 x 2 liter bottles from a "Cat C" boat and reinstalled 870 liter foam to have the figures added up!! and the boat had a buoyancy certificate...) and make sure that he is BIASA registered and the logo and his accredited membership number is also stated/displayed on the certificate.
    In fact, some insurance companies in Gauteng already insist on BIASA certificates for insurance due to some incompetent persons fitting substandard buoyancy in the past, and I believe this will eventually spread all over the country.
     
  3. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 113, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Hello Wynand, while we are on this subject and seeing that you are registered to do this kind of work and issue certificates, i would also like to know a bit more. I am sure our other readers will also benefit, even if this is for South Africa.

    Firstly what is BIASA certificates

    Secondly, please explain the different catagories ( E D C etc ) for our waters

    my main interest is small sailing vessels say 5m to 9m for offshore sailing, with bouyancy requirements, the main focus here is to be able to comply for Durban and to be able to do coastal sailing - Richards bay - EL - Maputo.
    Point is there are NO SAFE harbours in between, nowhere to hide, once you are out, you are committed, sink or swim !

    My hull is going together now and freeship gives me 500 kg displ, does that mean that i have to have 60% bouyancy = 300 litres? I want safe unsinkability because i would rather not have a life raft.

    I was going to take this up with you anyway but seeing that Colin has brought the matter up we might as well learn more now, and plan it into the build now.
     
  4. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,257
    Likes: 144, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1806
    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Perhaps I was a bit unclear. Certificates issued by BIASA members are commonly refer to as BIASA certificates, but there is no such thing. Preferably a certificate must have the BIASA logo and membership number clearly visible to avoid future hassles as the buoyancy issues are about to be sorted out soon by BIASA to get rid of the fly by night type out to rip boaters off for monetary gains.
    I attach a copy of buoyancy certificates I issue (foam placement get drawn onto the simple drawings with red pen) - the two pages a placed back to back and then laminated in plastic to prevent tampering. For obvious reasons I made all the numbers in my BIASA membership as zeros.
    BIASA = Boating Industry Association Of South Africa.

    BTW, my company only fits close cell expanded polyurethane foam - bottles and other stuff is a no go with me.

    Category R = Restricted to inland lakes, rivers, and within the confines of a port or lagoon/estuary

    Category E = vessels not operating more than 1 nautical mile from shore

    Category D = vessels operating more than 1 nautical mile but not more than 5 nautical miles from shore

    Category C = vessels operating more than 5 nautical miles but not more than 15 nautical miles from shore

    Category B = vessels operating more than 15 nautical miles but not more than 40 nautical miles from shore

    Category A = vessels operating more than 40 nautical miles from shore

    Category R calls for 30% positive flotation based on max displacement loaded excluding crew - all other categories calls for 60% positive flotation based on max displacement INCLUDING crew.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 113, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Thanks, now what are the latest / current requirements for Cat A small sailing vessels of Durban, or where can i download from. Taking it now that the boat will have 60% bouyancy. There seems to be confusion this side, and i woulld like to be up to date. eg. radio (vhf?), flares, lifejackets?? running lights?? anchors, fire extinguisher, mob marker, engine, fog horn?? compass, first aid kit?????

    The laws have changed and are been rewritten so it would be nice to know what is current, because some of these things haven't changed that much either, its just that when some small things change there is always unnessecary resistence from the public at large, mostly it is actually updates that is seen as change.

    Thanks sport ;)

    My werk in Warden is klaar en ek hoop om Bloem toe te gaan, dan val ek in by jou :D
     
  6. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    Hello Colin,

    The first thing you have to do for YOURSELF is to be happy that your boat cannot sink. It is worth it to go the extra mile for this piece of mind, you never know what situation you can land in and you know how reliable the weather forecast is. Imo, doesn't matter what category or type of boat you have, make it permanent booyancy. I've been in such a situation (before SAMSA and their crap came along) and I vowed never again without booyancy.

    Boats are friggin expensive, the little you are going to spend to give it positive booyancy is worth protecting the investment.

    I use only Sondor's XPS33 foam for this, they offer a certificate for booyancy for it, there is no other foam that can claim that that I am aware of. Beware of the two part mix that foams from AMT - all the so called booyancy fixers use it, it is an insulation foam and not a booyancy foam and does absorb water. The only way to use this pour foam is when you seal it very well in a solid form, by pouring it into the boat does not do it. You can just as well seal polistirene and use that. A few years froim now there are going to be a bunch of very PO people with very heavy and very unsafe boats, and SAMSA making the rules up as they go is just going to pull their shoulders up and say they just make the laws.

    The SPX33 bonds well to polyester resin and epoxy resin (Manie confirmed that), so you can glass it in place.

    We had so much crap up here in Gautengelengelengelengeleng with the booyancy issue and surveyors that is not informed that we go to a police station and make a declaration (avidavid) wrt the booyancy, this you send to SAMSA and you can give a copy to the surveyor.

    Since your rig is your responsibility in any case, this just means you declare you accept the responsibility for it, and as long as you pay SAMSA and the surveyor they are happy.

    Also, don't just dunk a stack of foam in the boat, plan it a bit so you get proper balance...
     
  7. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 113, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Wynand just another question

    in a case like Colin and myself that are building in marine ply
    can the volume of the wood and ply encased in epoxy also qualify as bouyancy as a part of the 60% the other being polyurethane

    might be a tricky question for our "authorities" that can't swim ;)
     
  8. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    Hi Manie,
    There is no such thing as a Cat A small sailing vessels :D A cat A vessel is one that can cross oceans and can be self sustained for a prolonged duration of time. Read the maritime notices.

    The laws change here all the time, you cannot buy a legal life jacket currently as in the meritime notices, remember what I told you the other night :D For local sailing you will need a VHF radio (and license) and yes, all the equipment. Make the list, you'll see it may never stop as the laws are changed all the time. Also note that while the marine stuff is supposed to be universal the world over, SAMSA does not recognise the CE rated equipment, and CE now also does not recognize SAMSA equipment. Pretty soon you will have to have both for visiting Mas ;)
     
  9. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    WRT the first aid kit, the course has to be redone every 2 years or something...

    The joke is, with all this manic safety going on on the water, the second you set foot on shore any philamon can take a pot shot at you and nothing will come of it. Where is the balance in all this.

    The only conclusion one can make from this is it is only to make money out of you. They don't give a **** if you live or die as long as you pay them before you die.
     
  10. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 113, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

  11. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    I know you are not impressed by what I tell you, wait until you get to the water and they refuse you to launch without reason like they did with us - and whoever is responsible is now dead. Shall I give the other guys that was with me your phone number and tell them you say this is my personal view :D
    It wasn't my personal view, it was someone else's personal view and it cost a lot of money.

    It was suggested by SAS that I join a sailing club, the hint was that it sort of opens a door for you to slip in through. You just complained about all the requirements, this is just another one added to your list, you yearly club membership.

    I'm not trying to be difficult. I, as much as every one else wants to enjoy my sport, but when one is treated badly and unfairly when you have paid and comply to all the requirements then you want a bit of service in return.

    http://www.samsa.org.za/content_main.asp?menuId=5
     
  12. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    Oh yes, be sure to read the '21 of 2009 New Compulsory standards for Lifejackets used on South African Vessels'

    Can you please indicate where I can get such a life jacket for sale ? I just bought a brand new life jacket for R1600 which now is worthless. You want to buy it :D
     
  13. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 4,603
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2484
    Location: Colonial "Sick Africa"

    Fanie Fanie

    Here's another one for you, I planned to make my own nav lights... which will comply of course. Now see the attached. This suggests that what I have been doing for the last 30+ years is below their standard.

    Had the same thing with my trailer lights, the 'approved' lights stopped working the first time they hit water, I re-installed my own which was 'disapproved' and they work ever since. Since then half the trucks on our roads are working with lights like mine, now why wasn't mine approved ???

    There is nothing you may do yourself. If you do not buy your boat from one of their 'approved' resellers you will not pass a survey. Sounds too radical for you ? Wait and see, monopolies are created faster than your standard of build can exceed theirs.

    I'm saying again - they don't care about your wellfare, they just want your maaaney.

    Sorry for thew rant there Colin, I'm looking for the maritime notice wrt booyancy...
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,257
    Likes: 144, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1806
    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Fanie, without going into pissing contest with you, you are a bit confused with some issues mentioned.
    SAMSA is very specific with the type of buoyancy to be fitted - styrene is a no no since petrol and oil attacks it. If bottles are to be used, it must be a HDPE type with sealed caps (this is in dispute and is a rigid bottle that does not collapse with altitude difference as Coke bottles and the like) and the foam the recommend is a closed cell expanded polyurethane foam. I use the RX121 type or commonly known as Resicon 44V20.

    Firstly, the foam does not need to have a buoyancy certificate - the purpose of it is to keep the water OUT of the hull when the hull is opened up, or the boat goes turtle. It is also commonly known that if the hull is damaged and the foam damaged by water, it should be repaired soonest as stated on reputable buoyancy certificates.
    The buoyancy need to float the boat for only 24 hours which leaves ample of time for help to arrive.
    I tested my foam by submerging it into under a brick water for 4 weeks and when taken out, only the outer layer of cells were soaked and when rubbed off by hand, the foam under that was still as good as new.

    As for your statement about foam not sticking to the boat - we had to remove a boxed seat from foam we sprayed in under the seat in a small bass boat- my apprentice sprayed in to much and as the seat was only temporally fixed at that stage and the expansion of the foam lifted the seat about 100mm up. It was hell to get the GRP seat off the foam and foam from the hull. We actually used a rip hand saw in desperation and still it to a longgg time.
    The foam is also very light and only weights about 38 kg per meter cubed. Most ski boats inland uses about 240 lt on average and we just done a Z Craft Catamaran for Cat C and she took about 870 lt - about 33kg in weight.

    As for Life jackets - I received the latest notices about 4 weeks ago from BIASA and the CE mark is now accepted. You have such a range now to choose from with the new legislation and do not understand your complaining about PDF's.

    BTW, I do about 5 buoyancy's weekly on average and my clients expect me as an installer to do it right with the best available as required by legislation. I have the complete and latest SAMSA Marine Notice 13 (with most recent updates) on file for reference purposes
     

  15. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,257
    Likes: 144, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1806
    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Manie, I am on record and in dispute with SAMSA and more so with this so called safety inspectors from SAADSA issuing COF's and the like that I held a workshop at my shop about 4 weeks ago with two top dogs from SAMSA in attendance to answer questions on the buoyancy issue.
    They are not very Kosher in my books on the subject and rather stand with the views of their safety officers (persons that cannot even tell you what CP of a boat means - ordinary guys with jobs like handyman, pig farmer and the likes) rather than a veteran boatbuilder / designer like me. ****, I have a three year diploma in small boat design and should know a little bit more than these suckers that intrepid the rules as they want. My local safety officer insist that a baler must be a galvanized steel bucket!! and fail boats on COF if it is plastic that can float when dropped in water....

    Luckily there are some good guys around like this chap whom is on the technical committee of BIASA and executive member on SAMSA board whom regularly contacts me regarding the buoyancy issue.
    Tomorrow Tuesday Im in Boksburg discussing with him some issues and formulas he need on buoyancy for the coming technical meeting at SAMSA. I was actually invited to go along but declined since I have to make my own way to Cape Town for that.

    I cracked a rotten egg and informed him to inform SAMSA that there is no way that 30% buoyancy will float a Cat R boat when swamped. This rocked the boat badly so to speak and over the last couple of weeks run my calculations many times and every time the same answer.
    I actually contacted "Carte Blanche" on Mnet about this that it is an accident waiting to happen and many people are under the impression their boats are "unsinkable" and will be now subconsciously be less careful due to this false security and I predicted people will drown in this season because of this error by SAMSA. They did not contacted me yet and probably wont - same with Huisgenoot I contacted. Philemon hanging on a white chick is more news worthy:(
    I am desperate and need people to be made aware of this but how? Can you imagine the implications and havoc this will cause...?

    Tomorrow in Boksburg my calculations will be demonstrated to the person mentioned to be taken to SAMSA. Will they act upon that? I will say no because in doing so, they will admit that they are fools and cost a lot of people a lot of money for nothing. That is how politics work and I see some dark days coming. Perhaps I must contact the Rapport and get this in the open if they have the balls.

    But Manie, back to your questions. Unfortunately I am at home and the data I need is in my office and I will post it tomorrow afternoon when Im back from Boksburg.
    In short; different materials have different SG factors when submerged and this must be brought into the flotation calculations and this is where SAMSA ****** up. Eg. Fibreglass laminate SG is about 1.5 ton per meter cubed dry. Submerged the factor is about 0.33 due to the density of the water. So does everything changes in SG when submerged. But you will have the numbers tomorrow and you can calculate it yourself
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. Bruce1947
    Replies:
    30
    Views:
    12,209
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.