boats that are designed with car aerodynamic method?

you dont know everything !!

Frosty you are a man ofter my own heart !!.
We are in the last 2/3s of building a 90 foot canal boat . As soon as we got any sort of a hint as to drawings i was all over them like spilt ink looking and looking at all the things that wernt there . We have a young designer here but knows very little about boats . Comes from house and office interior design , clever on cad and rendering etc etc . but thats his lot . over a week we sat and i slowly went through the boat in the order at which it would be build and how and what etc etc . very slowly we got information from the actual designer , this guy didnt know the differance between **** and chewed dates . his glass layups were rediculous and the frame work inside the boats was like something i have never seen even in my worst nightmare !!so time to sort and advise and give reasons why things needed changing . Everything was copy and paste from other drawing he had done on smaller boats . Like i pointed out small boats are not big boats and onstruction is not the same !! I kept hearing but but but , sorry there are no buts !!!
Now were are quite away into this boat and it get splashed 5th on november ready or not . all the things i pointed out that were just standard proceedure they didnt do ,now they are paying the price and finding they have to be done and its taking 3 times as long to make and fit etc etc .
Over the years i have worked with some very clever and a few well know designers in my part of the world . I always after recieving the drawings want a meeting with the designer himself and we sit and go throught all the construction details and the reasoning why is this made the way it is and whats that for etc etc .
Always i look for a better and easyer way of making things and say so . Have had the occassion where the designer picked up the drawings and walked out but after talking to other people and taking time out and thinking about what i had advised the whole thing starts again but revised . Unfortunately a very high persentage of designers are single minded have blinkers on they also live in boxs and havent seen the light of day for long time they have there own style and ways of doing things and it shows !!. and if you critisize anything they get really up set and will even get up and leave waving there arm in the air and breathing fire !!.
Last big mega boat i worked that was built to DNV approval we had 13 designers and everything went through there head man plus 2 more people in other departments . 3 signatures with 3 stamps then we got the plans . the first time i sent back a set of drawing cause a major up roar and i got hauled into the office !! how dare you question how this is to be made , it all dnv approved !! then i pointed out it wasnt going to work and was a complete waste of materials . after a cooling period it suddenly dawned they had miss read how it should have been made . new drawings issued and away we went , build and done and on with the next . the guys and myself always when we got new drawings spread them out and went through one by one and talked about the whole process and how it was to be done . during these talks problems arose and we were able to get them corrected before the first blow was stuck .

We are not infalable ,we all need to toe the line now and then . we all make mistakes , we dont know everything and if you think you are an expert your are an idiot !! I will never profess to knowing everything about anything
yes i been and done my job for a long long time in many differant places but where ever i go and where ever i worked i have learn new things . Learning never stops !!

 

A 1mm rolled round stainless bowl like the aircraft industry use is light weight , easy to clean and polish. I think the ubiquitous pot is 50 years old now another look at this could be worth while.

The boat industry is stuck in the mud Why is it designers think we all want the same ---Look at any mag and you will see an artist impression of a 80 foot power boat in blue seas driven but a handsome guy in his 30s . Behind him or not too far away will be 2 no 3 bikini clad dolly birds grasping a bottle of champagne.

30 year olds cant afford it and who the hell wants 3 dolly birds --. The point is it is utter none sence there is no day ever you can sit on deck in UK in a bikini and if you bring it down here to the Far East no Asian dolly bird sits in the sun--it is all in the minds of the designer. Those impressions are an insult to any boaters intelligence

So why do they do it --because they think they are in charge and this is what you need.

Think aircraft 'Airbus' has beautiful interior and it is light,---it flies in the sky, I don't want African pine , I dont want teak decks ( ever ever again ) I don't want rose wood soles I want light weigh removable washable carpets.

A re designed boat is just move the toilet, oh and and the galley is over there now. Yes our 2013 model is much different there is bigger windows in it. ----Sigh.

Ive tried to think of a way to remove drives from the water . Ive come up with a few ideas but they will not be satisfactory in so much as it will be a little more than press a button. I want deisel inboards with a surface drive.

The transom would need to be stepped so that a shaft would be on the surface and would therefore lift clear. It is possible to do.

The new Boeing dreamliner is built from new materials. 40 years ago a 747 could just make London Dubai -- now it a straight thro to Sydney.

Whats happened in the boat industry same toilets and bigger windows and the shaft is sealed with greasy string with pot toilets that you cant ship less than the price of it.

The boat industry is stuck in the mud.

Im sorry Ad but this is the same line too, How can lighter be more expensive. Save money off African pine and rose wood and use carpet.

Thinner hulls more cleverly designed ribs is expensive?

Allumium extrusion with modern plastics is expensive?

I don't want a usless fly bridge in these hot climates ,--thats 1 ton saved and then the cabin roof does not need to be thick enough to hold a party on.

Most power boats today are called floating condos and there is a reason for that,---about the same weight.

 

Most designers must lead boring lives !!

Stuck in the mud is an understatement .
Like i said they need to change there library books now and then and look past the old popular mechanic shelf where the 1920 to 50 book are kept !! Im sick of looking at the same old white boats that look the same as 3 either side !!
The managers in this company just looked in dismay when i said if there where 30 boats in a row and this company had one boat there how would you find it ?? what has it got non of the others have ??
How will anyone see it just looking down the row of boats in the marina ??
Theres absolutly nothing to make it stand out at all, not a thing !!
Designers just keep repeating the same old same old all the time ,dosent matter what country your in !!
When i go to a book shop these days take me less than 2 minutes to look through each of the latest and greatest boating magazines theres little differance from the books published a year before .one book last a life time !!
Even the pretty girl thing isnt getting the attention it used to,you can hire most of them for a few buck and when you finished get dressed and go home to you wife !!

 

Forsty
With respect you’re missing the point.

Steel is steel, its SG is 7.8. What is the SG of carbon fibre once laid up?..it is around 2.0

So taking the same 1mm thick bowl, 1 made from steel the other from carbon fibre…which si lighter….the “light weight” steel or the carbon fibre?

Looking at the SG’s clearly the carbon fibre is lighter.

Which of the 2 options..the thin 1mm s/steel bowl or the carbon fibre be the most expensive?

Try two commercial options here:

Steel:
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/lee-...ine-toilets-stainless-steel-25362-307000.html

CF:
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/tecma/carbon-marine-toilets-22256-52992.html

The s/steel weight 14kg compared to 2kg for the carbon fibre.

Which you want to buy?

It isn’t the design, it’s the materials and production methods required to obtain the weight saving and strength is where the cost is.

How much does the tooling for a carbon fibre hull cost?....and then compare it against a simple steel jig for ally.

Nope…not at all. Aluminium pound for pound is excellent. I use extrusions extensively.
What’s the plastic for?.....and what type of plastic??

Finally as a simple example. Engines, your area of expertise

Take an MTU engine and a CAT engine. Which is lighter and more powerful..and which is more expensive??....the MTU.

There is a difference between light…cheap and nasty…and light..and fit for purpose and will work day in day out and survive 50knots of pounding and still work 10years later. That is where the cost goes. You can have cheap and light and the boat won’t last long.

Light weight high performance running shoes…cheaper??
If you want copies and second rate imitations….they will be cheaper…but will they last!...blame the suppliers blame the quality control....don't blame the messenger!

 

Its a proven fact but why should we do it ??

It isn’t the design, it’s the materials and production methods required to obtain the weight saving and strength is where the cost is. No its not ,you dont understand what you just said !! you live in lala land !!!

Using the Same moulds and same resins and just changing to a better glass material and a better way of using that glass and that alone can make a significant differance in the weight of a hull and deck !!,Add to that wet on wet lay ups and theres another significant weight saving just in resin alone plus its easyer and quicker so laees labour .
And we havent even touched on the use of cores or even Resin infusion . Just the simple method of changing glass and glassing scheduals and you can take lots weight out of a hull and deck and thats just the begining add to that the amount of hours that can be taken out and you can ask how did that happen ????
Less hours , better glass thats stronger and wets out better and quicker !
Same resin and using wet on wet glassing and thats just the begining . Still using the same old moulds , havent changed anything else .
Has to be introduced over a period of time and with the cooperation of the guys working and doing the job . no one has to work harder you just have to work smarter and more efficently !!!
Not interested in carbon or kevlar or honeycomb ! theres no need for production boats to us any of those kinds of materials at all .
And you were saying ??

 

Hmmm..so this brand new design is not a brand new design…it is an existing design using existing moulds. Great stuff...tell that to the client who wants HIS boat different because HE is paying for it!!
That's another contract lost owing to intransigence

Hmmm, that sounds like:

which are changing….hmmm …so these changes….all this is free, no more additional cost…wow!! A better glass material…cheaper than existing lower quality…wow!!!...changing your schedule happens automatically because no one is being paid to implement the changes…free…wow!!

So, all this is free time I assume..they do it unpaid?

Who said anything about production boats? Frosty is after what he wants..not want the rest have got. That’s a one off, i.e. NOT a production boat.

Funny…those that like to shout about thinner, lighter options are those that do…that is to say….i get my hands dirty…I can make this thinner and lighter is great!...yet those that ‘do’ fail to understand simple structural principals of what they are suggesting.

What drives the strength of a boat??...it’s structural stiffness. That is a combination of E..the Youngs modulus and I..the second moment of inertia of the structure.

So, if are using the same materials…the “EI” is less, because the I has thinner skins..so the modulus is less…ie not as good. To make it just the same, not better, just the same, the I must increase, if you are using ‘thinner’ layups. Which means either you must increase the thickness….bummer adding weight again…, or move the skins further part…oh that’s a change again….bummer…all these changes…but wait..you say it is cheaper to implement all these changes.

Great stuff

 

Do you actually have any hands on exsperiance at all Or you just a white collar worker with a number instead of a name ?
Stiffness is why boats break !!,,something has to give some where yes it a matter of working more efficently . we worked Glide time lunch and tea breaks were at any time of the day and when ever the guys wanted them
Production went up, quality went up consistancy was much much better .
Like i said it didnt happen over night took about 4 months to implement all the changes ! the guys had more freetime and were more relaxed and helped one another our staff dropped from 24 to 17 over 2 years and production didnt go down attendance shot up and hardly no one had time off work for any reason .

 

Oh...really??..please explain to me how this is so.

All for free, 4 months of training...no one paid extra over this time, no cost were incurred training, no validation of their training as "yes it works", or was that given free too??..they did it all, out of the goodness of their hearts and the company didn't pay extra in wastage or materials or lost production? Bless them

 

Lookswe have what Wynnie was missing the other day.. hmmm Tunnels, wondering just if you have any ofsprings in west coast Canada?

 

As we seem to be stuck on the toilet bowl thing and its strength to weight can you imagine picking up a 1 foot salad bowl and turn it upside down ,--you can stand on it infact Ille wager you and the wife can stand on it,how strong do you want it. a salad bowl will not weigh 1/2 lb.

Im not asking cheap inferior materials the aircraft industry has manged to move forward in plastics --they do exist.

You can save a lot of money if I don't want a bridge . I don't want teak decks . I dont want a wood sole. I don't want side windows. I don't want a hand rail or boring ubiquitous stainless tubed awning supports. I don't support you argument that this will cost more. I dont even want gell coat just mold it up and paint it anything but white.

An engine is required theres not much I can do without one or two and I need fuel as well . This weight is accepted.

Bathroom pods---why are they 4 sided ---you only need 3 sides.

I can see massive weight waste on every boat I see. All this is fuel and performance. Most of it is laziness in not thinking,--is there another way ?

 

Sorry, but you brought up the loo bowl, not me. Thus taking your example for your premise.

I gave you links to 2 existing currently available bowls, one stainless steel the other carbon fibre. The CF being 2kg and the s/steel 14kg. If you think you can make one lighter than 2kgs…you can corner the market.

Have you checked their price differential yet?

So..when someone working on the shopfloor making the A380….says …hey, you know what..if we press this down harder…use a different mixture, we can make this panel lighter…..what do you think shall happen?

Will they:
1) Slap it all together as per recommendation and weight it and say hey presto…brilliant
Or
2) As above, but measure the different quantities, try different pressures, different mix ratios…different temp for curing…and then after all that…test it..test it again..test it to destruction….to finally be satisfied that “just being lighter” and “with a small change” in procedure is not going to incur problems later on. All this does not come cheap..and someone somewhere will want to recover these development and investment costs.

Thus which, is cheaper…and which is safer?...and which would you want on the A380?

Why is THAT accepted but nothing else??...why make the engine parts from composite..make it lighter…make it more fuel efficient…must be cheaper..its lighter…as the saying goes…why allow these to get off so lightly??

 

ooooo your true colours are starting to showing !!
Was a company that had contractors and they they were replaced with the companies own staff its why i was employed as factory manager . slowing over a period of time and working with the guys i got to know each persons abilities and skill level . the fore man and i sorted leading hands and then they in turn picked the guys they wanted on there teams while oll this was taking shape restructuring was also taking place behind the scenes and yest with responcabilities came better money because they were underpaid any way .
over time as a complete team i asked what changes do you want ? what do you want to see happen ?? by this time with restructuring and better pay they didn really want hardly anything so i set about slowly changing work habits and each team did there own on the job training of the junior staff
each month the junior staff were swapped around to do differant jobs by the end of 6 months skill levels had all risen and they guys actually enjoyed coming to work if i suspected guys were still hung over from there parties the night befoe they were taken to the time clock and clocked out and not to come back till the next day , next day it was explained that in the case of a accident the company could be sued . So that habit ceased in less than a month everyone helped every one else of there own free will . i spent one day a week with overalls on doing any job everyone else was doing ,in a shortime i had built up a healthy respect that if they could do some thing so could i and was not affraid to get down and dirty like everyone else .chopper gun work , grinding , waxing anything at all
working glide time was there choice ,if they worked through the official lunch time to complete a job and do wet on wet glassing . the tea lady would always make fresh tea and have lunchs warmed and waiting when they arrived . i alwasy did a check of workmanship and i never had any cause at any time to ever doubt there abilities ,my job was to manage and thats what i did !! always had materials and equipment ready when it was needed ,alway keep all our tools and gear in 99% good working order . I removed the doorlocks off my office and the door was always open all the time . if someone wanted to just come and chat ,not a problem . i operated the shop how i would have liked it in any of the places i had worked over the years .i even had one of the guys wives come and thank me for changes in her husband , he didnt drink during the week their home life was better !!.
in saying that i had one young guy that was a leading hand and he tried to call in sick from a night on the town and a drinking spree so i call his girlfiends mother and she really got stuck in him . he came to work and sat in his car all day looking very sorry for himself !! self inflicted punishment !because all the other guys gave him heaps . never did it again .
Think what you like i really dont have a lot of time for people like i think you are !! people like you are a dime a dozen .
i treat staff like i want to be treated myself , every where i have ever worked i have always got more production and better quality of work from staff i have worked with than anyone before or after me .
i enjoy what i do, its not a job its a passion and my hobby at this age . i love boats and boating and being on the water !!,working with race boats i can make almost any ones boat go faster and handle better than it was .
stuff boat are not good boats they are hard riding and over time end up with stress marks and look old even when they are still just a few years old .
give me a boat that has feel and a little movement any time .

 

Light weight alone is not the Holy Grail of marine design. Ultimately, the vessel needs to be sold. Buyers drive the design more than any theory. If a design can't be sold, it doesn't matter how "advanced" it is. Also, aircraft design is more sensitive to weight than marine. Many vessel benefit from a heavier displacement. It makes them more seakindly, an aspect often overlooked.

 

I agree with some things but design has to change !! a better designed boat thats lighter is what the market is going to call for and of all our one eyed clever designers not doing there home work and seeing where theres a nitch in the market place they will be forever playing catch up and asking why why why !!

 

Ahh..so that's how you save money and make things cheaper...better tea and playing the mother-in-law card.

This is truly excellent management skills here. The whole world is wrong in thinking that you have write down and draw in detail follow QA, double check and explain and teach others (whom teach for free too) and invest in different methods to ensure consistent quality etc just to make things cheaper. It only takes cups of tea...great stuff, i'll go and buy lots of tea now, wont bother with technical stuff at all...waste of time

And we get:

Ah..so that is your justification of why a stiff boat cracks. Nice reply....great stuff. I learned so much, thank you