billionaire Larry Ellison's America's Cup using minimum wage labor. LOL.

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Squidly-Diddly, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    In USA there is something called "Prevailing Wage" which means most projects with any Govt involvement must pay the same as "Union Scale" or close to it.

    I've personally filed complaints/claims at the SF office, but that was back in Bush II, in 2003, for a contractor doing work for Federal Govt. The people taking the cases, with authority to force contractors to comply, are APPOINTEES of the administration in office at the time.

    Even thought the Bush admin was more or less against PW and Unions, the person taking my claim (a very attractive Japanese girl just out of law school) used all the authority of her office. I asked what her office was going to do, and how long it would take. She said she was stopping all payments to the contractor I was working for, till the wages issue was resolved, but the stoppage of payments didn't change the fact they were still under contract to perform....and that she COULD order them off the project till issue resolved, and that if it is proven they violated PW that would be enough reason to cancel their contract and bring in another contractor, and fine them for any expense, etc. I asked how exactly they would get ordered off the project, like a letter to Wash DC and hearing in 6 weeks or 6 months or something, and she said no, she would have a Federal Marshall(with a gun) do it, in person, that day, if needed.

    I said, "please don't order them off the project, I still kinda need that job".


    My point being, when you make a deal with the Govt, you agree to whole slew of their requirements, and they always give themselves the right to "yank the rug out from under you" if they find you aren't meeting any of them. The Govt can and will, if they chose, treat any of their silly little rules just like Fire Safety regs, and require their full enforcement immediately, backed by the police.


    Getting back to this America's Cup and SF and PW enforcement(that ain't happening). You got Obama, Gov Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown, and the city of SAN FRANCISCO (which is the world epicenter of liberals and Unions, etc)....so the entire Govt apparatus charged with enforcing PW all the way up the ladder is VERY pro-Union and pro-PW, and it would be trivial form them to tell Larry "If you don't obey the law, including PW, you will be in violation of our contract and you will not be allowed to use our property".

    But I guess Larry has them all "buffaloed". This is pretty amazing, because SF, along with Chicago and NYC are about the only remaining "union towns" in USA, and the various govt agents charged with enforcing PW are pretty required to take a case when a claim is made, and it is pretty cut and dried about how the party being investigated must submit "Certified Payroll" etc. Not a lot of room for "judgement calls" or "opinions".


    https://www.google.com/search?q=Ame...pw.r_qf.&fp=4c814b5607df3525&biw=1440&bih=704
     
  2. BPL
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    BPL Senior Member

    How much of the America's Cup is the government paying for?
     
  3. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    at least $32million, according to this...

    Not exactly chump change for a bankrupt city.

    Others have said any "tourism and infrastructure to the city" for this one time event is more than offset by how the event has evicted and displaced long term tenants.

    Generally, the whole "Cup" thing seems to be going downhill, with less sponsors and interest.

    I think it "jumped the shark" when some team foxed the rules and came out with a technically legal, but unexpected, catamaran, to win what became a 'no contest' race. Nothing against big fast cats, but now there isn't any "real America's cup" race anywhere.

    Then it got taken over by Larry Ellison, which gives the whole thing that same lack of coolness as when some otherwise cool rock group does a "Pepsi Generation" tour.

    Too bad, because the VENUE of SF bay is arguably the best in the world for this sort of thing. Free seating for millions, strong winds(but otherwise decent weather), lots of tourist friendly other attractions, etc.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area...s-best-sailors-racing-this-week-san-francisco

    "In a news conference at Marina Green on Tuesday, Mayor Ed Lee still promised that the Cup will create 8,000 jobs and bring $1 billion in tourism and infrastructure to the city. While the city expects to pay out some $32 million in costs for the environmental review, traffic control and security measures, an America's Cup Organizing Committee was created to raise private money to pay the city back. So far, they're on track, according to Jane Sullivan, the city's liaison with the America's Cup.



    PS-IIRC the whole Prevailing Wage thing kicks in if ANY Govt money, leased land, etc is involved. It is pretty much a Black or White issue, from a developer's stand point. There is no graduated scale. It either is or isn't a PW project.

    Overall, unions in SF got a pretty bad reputation for poor workmanship and low quality workers demanding inflated wages, especially for things like trade shows at convention centers, etc, as well as just about any SF city or govt project. Even if you weren't the guy cutting the paychecks, you would want workers from Alabama who were making $10/hour rather than SF union labor making $30 plus $15 in benefits. At least the guys from Alabama would speak, read and write English at some level, and would be cheerful trust worthy workers.
     
  4. BPL
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    BPL Senior Member

    How much is the difference between minimum wage and prevailing wage for the jobs you are talking about?
     
  5. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    SF city min is $10.40 IIRC, "Laborer" (construction) is $27+ benefits for total

    of about $45/hour.

    "Carpenter" is about $60/hour total. I put "carpenter" in quotes because in SF that means ANYONE who comes from ANY part of the world and signs up him, or her ( or somewhere in between, we are talking Frisco!) self at the Carpenter's union will be dispatched as "Journeyman Carpenter", no questions asked by the Union.
     
  6. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Get real-

    My best friend is a medical doctor and PHD phyisists. He doesn't make anything like $60/hr. I have never met anyone who did. Going rate for a master carpenter with 20 years experience and who provides the compressors and nailers for his crew is about 14-15/hr. I work 25 hours a week in exchange for free parking for my RV. About half engineering and site development, and half maintenance. I take care of all the equipment, vehicles, power tools, and do most of the electrical work and chainsaw waork. I also park the guests RVs. It works out to about $4/hr. I provide about $10K of my own tools. I can get skilled trades on site for $8/hr to do anything and they will work 14 hours a day and very few bother to stop for lunch.
     
  7. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    If you don't know anyone who makes sixty dollars an hour when their benefits are added to their wages, you don't know very many people.

    The median wage for just basic carpenters in this country is about $40,000 a year, which translated into a 2000-hour year is about twenty dollars an hour. If skilled ones in your area are really working for eight bucks an hour, they're seriously dragging that national median wage down.... cost of living must be extremely low in your area. Here in California that wouldn't be enough to live on, much less support a family.

    http://www1.salary.com/Carpenter-I-Salary.html

    Back when I was a skilled and well-equipped carpenter, I wouldn't have left my tools on a job for $8.00 an hour, much less stayed and used them... and that was twenty five or thirty years ago.

    add: according to cbsalary.com, the average medical doctor's income in Beaufort is $138,645 a year. Apparently your friend is selling his time cheap....
     
  8. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    PhiSweet, it be (mostly) real, here is typical ad from Craigslist

    in SF for carpenter, but remember typically in "Termite Repair" their is a lot driving and hanging around company yard, and or of standing around waiting for inspectors or for RE agents to show up, etc, so wages are typically lower that regular "work all day" carpenters on larger jobs.

    25 Hours a week just for parking??? I hope that includes things like 2 hours a day of "security" while you sip a couple beers on the front porch, or being "on call" in needed while watching football on TV all day.

    Most I ever made in one "day" was just over $1000 TAKE HOME on a 31 hour shift overnight doing some architectural mock up project for a big name computer company, so some big wigs could come and spend 5 mins to approve it so some big project could meet a deadline.

    But it is not uncommon for Union carpenters to get time and half (Sat) or even double time (Sun) in addition to 40hr week. However, most of those jobs aren't steady, or are always 60+ miles away from home.


    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/trd?query=Carpenter&srchType=A
    MID-LEVEL CARPENTER FOR RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION & TERMITE COMPANY (san leandro)

    Date: 2012-10-02, 10:49AM PDT
    hm4pb-3311455647@job.craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
    Mid-Level Carpenter needed for over 20-year old company specializing in quality structural repairs (general construction & termite / water damage) and residential remodeling in the East Bay.

    This full time position requires 1 - 2 years of field experience in all aspects of building, from foundation to finish work including rough framing, windows and doors, decks, stucco, tile, linoleum and finish carpentry.

    Qualifications Include:

    • 1 - 2 years of Field Experience with construction background
    • Performing ANY and all tasks necessary to get the job done.
    • Must have own tools and reliable transportation.
    • Highly organized, clean and safety conscious.
    • Independent worker who is a self starter.
    • Positive can-do attitude is required.
    • Good DMV a must.

    Compensation: $13 -- $16, based on experience

    Plus Benefit package offered: medical, vacation & holiday pay

    Check us out at www.timesuptermite.com


    Fax resume to 510.568.7500
    Or email

    • Compensation: $13 -- $16, based on experience, plus benefits
    • Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
    • Please, no phone calls about this job!
    • Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
    PostingID: 3311455647





    Working Foreman (san mateo)
    Date: 2012-10-02, 8:20AM PDT
    qmvs3-3311045491@job.craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
    We are looking for an experienced and professional carpenter/foreman to join our team.

    Have to have own tools and experienced in all levels of carpentry and management of a crew.

    MUST have experience reading plans and pulling permits/handling building inspections.

    Must be able to do a take off from plans

    Job types may include wood repair, drywall, deck/arbor construction, bath/kitchen remodels.

    The successful candidate must be customer focused, friendly, reliable and honest.

    We are looking to hire for this position asap.

    Send your resume for an immediate interview.



    Compensation: 25.00-40.00 per hour
    Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
    Phone calls about this job are ok.
    Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
     
  9. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    SD, I noticed that $13-$16/hour termite repair job only requires 1-2 years experience. Hard to see how an applicant could cram meaningful experience "in all aspects of building, from foundation to finish work including rough framing, windows and doors, decks, stucco, tile, linoleum and finish carpentry" into that short a time frame...

    I applied for one of those termite repair jobs once, when things were tight. When I found I'd be working all over the greater Los Angeles area,and driving my own truck from job to job without getting mileage or drive-time, I realized I'd be lucky to clear minimum wage.
     
  10. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I've applied at places that go into a sob story about how I'm

    supposed "help them out" and work for near min wage and his is some guy with big house, brand new truck, big boat in driveway. LOL.

    However, I've noticed you learn alot more at some of those cheap paying low level operators, because YOU are the guy doing everything, vs at some high end contractor doing hi end work on large scale they tend to pidgin hole workers.

    One of the big problems with Unions in construction is they don't allow for any cross training...so installing a dishwasher takes a carpenter, elect, and plumber and painter....and superintendent to supervise all those guys LOL(I've seen this). Notice these ads for non-union say things like "exp. carpenter with knowledge of other trades helpful". That guy will install the same dishwasher at 1/4 the cost and do it in 4 hours, not 4 days (of scheduling).
     

  11. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    Here in Southern California, about the only construction projects that are still union are government-related ones, like schools, bridges and the like. I worked residential my whole career and never ran into a union, except for the odd plumbing or concrete contractor with a union crew on housing tracts. And there of course, no one would be installing just one dishwasher....

    My brother ran headfirst into that separation of duties union thing however, when he was a lighting technician in Hollywood. He went to grab a paddle box one day, and it had some makeup setting on it. So he set the makeup aside, grabbed the paddle box and went on with the job. Some union rep gave him holy hell for it: he had no business touching that box of makeup. It was not his job to move makeup. He should have gone and found a makeup person, to move that makeup off his paddle box....

    I'll admit that unions contributed to their own downfall in this country, by fostering attitudes like that. Too many members turned into s***house lawyers, who were more interested in enforcing the nitpicking details of their contract than they were in getting the job done.
     
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