beating angle

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by urisvan, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    i have a long keel and stern hang rudder(attached to the keel also) masthead sloop boat. i attached the picture of her.
    what should be the best close hauled angle?
    now it is very bad; 60 degrees is less than i expect. i will be glad even if it will be 45.
     

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  2. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    You should be able to tack at, say, 45-50 degrees to the wind, this is typical. You should correct things more or less in this order:
    1. Make sure that you have a clean bottom with no marine growth on it.
    2. Make sure that you have a two-bladed propeller that can house properly in the vertical position behind the deadwood. Alternatively, get a folding or feathering propeller, which are made in 2, 3, and 4-blade configurations.
    3. Look at your sails. How old are they? If more than just a few years old, they are probably stretched out. Invest in some new sails from a reputable sailmaker and you will see a noticeable improvement.
    4. Make sure that when you are sailing, you are following good sail trim practices. Have your sailmaker put telltales on the mainsail and the jib so that you can read the telltales as your sailing. Your sailmaker can show you how they work and how to read them.

    All of these will improve the boat's pointing ability. I put them in this order because even good sails cannot overcome bad drag coming from a dirty hull or a bad propeller. So correct the hull and propeller first, if necessary, then look to the sails, which is really probably the biggest cause of the problem.

    I hope that helps.

    Eric
     
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  3. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I would add that some boats sail best close-hauled with the sails let out a bit. Pinching (having the sails hauled in too close to the centerline) can have the opposite of the desired effect. Eased a bit, they will actually drive the boat closer to the wind.
    Use a GPS to find the right sail position (my own boat sails best with the boom end just over the corner where the side meets the stern). You should, as said get 50 degrees. Unless you have far too little lateral plane below, which would show up on a drawing or a photo of the boat's underbelly.
     
  4. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    my underwater surface is smooth, and without marine growth. I have a 3 blade propeller, is it so crucial?
    as you said the real prooblem is about the sails. the main sail does not pull so much and the genoa is flaping when i go close to the wind. I have a furling and when the wind is blowing i reduce the area of the genoa by furling it. it ruins the shape of the genoa.
    I think one genoa is not enough. i need one or two more for stronger wind conditions. what do you say for it?
     
  5. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Yes, the three-bladed propeller causes a lot of drag. If that propeller works well with the engine and you get good boat speed, then I recommend getting a similar size (same diameter and pitch) feathering or folding propeller, put that on, and keep the original as a spare. You should notice some difference in sailing speed and perhaps pointing ability.

    Sail shape and trim is everything--If the genoa is flapping when sailing on the wind, then you are pinching too close to the wind and/or you do not have a good sheet angle. The genoa sheet could be too far outboard, and/or not aligned properly vertically. That is, if the leach of the sail is flapping, you might be pulling aft too much as opposed to dow--move the sheet block forward. If the foot of the genoa is flapping, then the sheet block is too far forward and you have to move it aft.

    This is where telltales come in. You should have about three or four sets of telltales up the luff of the genoa and along the leach--all of them should always be streaming aft--that's when you know you have good airflow across the sail and are generating the most possible lift. If the telltales are not streaming aft but curling up or down, then you have cross-flow on the sail, and that is an indicator that the sail is producing too much drag.

    The same applies to the mainsail. The mainsail shape is manipulated by the outhaul, downhaul, halyard, vang, and mainsheet. Telltales along the luff and leach will again show you where the airflow is going, and the ideal is to have all the telltales streaming aft. You have to play with all the control lines, particularly the vang and the mainsheet, to develop proper sail shape for each point of sail and wind condition.

    If the sails do not respond well to the adjustments on the control lines, then the sails are tired and stretched out. They need to be recut or replaced. A good sailmaker will be able to see what adjustments to make.

    Good luck.

    Eric
     
  6. celenoglu
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    celenoglu Junior Member

    45 degrees to the wind is the accepted standard. That means the boat can tack 90 degrees. According to the speed of the wind and your boat, you should be able to see an apperant wind angle of 30 degrees.


    A full keeled boat cannot be as close to the wind as a fin keeled boat. But the amount should not be as high as (60-45=15 degrees) although prop underwater resistance and other factors are important., the sail is the most important of all. On a cruising boat the useful age of the sails is about 7 years. Although the diriving force of the sails decreases with time, this is the maximum life of a sail.

    The genova is the sail that is mainly driving the boat when sailing close hauled because the wind is deflected by the genova and the main sail is nearly vertical to the boat to have some wind.

    If your genova is flapping when you are close hauled even if you move the car forward or backward, you need a new sail.

    If you are using a furling headsail, you cannot reef it. Although you can decrease the area of the sail the shape will be completely altered so it will not produce any amount of drive. Keeping the genova area at its maximum and reefing the main (even getting rid of it) is the only way of reefing. If you feel you can change the genova in higher winds, do it. It is never as easy as changing sails on a classic boat with single or double wires.
     
  7. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    the problem is when i reef the genoa. otherwise i can go 35-40 degrees. but i also want to go in stronger winds.
    i have do decide what should i do. Throw away the furling or live with it?
     
  8. celenoglu
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    celenoglu Junior Member

    Unlike a racing boat a cruising boat iis generally not used for beating. It is better to use the engine and the main for beating. You can read my article:

    http://www.tekneuzmani.com/motor.html

    which is in Turkish.

    As I wrote before a furling genova is not good for reefing. You either use the full sail or furl it. You may reef it on other angles of the wind, but not for beating, since the shape changes a lot.
     
  9. Perm Stress
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    Perm Stress Senior Member

    In order to reef genoa (more or less) properly, it is necessary to have a few refinements:
    1) extra play in tack fitting, so that when foil starts to be rotated for reefing, tack starts to rotate about half-a-turn later. This refinement is relatively new, if roller reefing gear is more as ~10 years old, it probably will not have this feature.
    2) luff padding: stripes of thickening material (I have seen even soft rope inserted in pockets sewn to the sail) parallel to luff; stopped ~1m short from foot and leach, ant tapered -wider in the center, narrowing towards head and tack. this causes more material to be taken from the belly of sail as from the leach and foot, making reefed sail more flat.
    3) battens in the leach: about 1metre long, parallel to luff. When reefing, genoa is rolled until batten is next to foil, then one extra turn - so that between batten and part of sail still flying therre is always 1 to 1,5 turn of material on the foil.
    4) adjustable sheet cars: as genoa is rolled in, jib cars have to be moved progressively forward.
    5) a genoa designed specifically for roller reefing: special "molded" shape, specific choice of cut and materials (don't ask me about details).

    best regards
     
  10. jonr
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    jonr Senior Member

    > the best close hauled angle

    Whatever angle the GPS shows best VMG when you pick an upwind mark and sail to it.
     
  11. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    i couldn't visialize it in my mind. could you help me please. batten parallel to luff?

    regards
     
  12. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    And also, please say your opinion about adding an inner forestay as i tried to show it on the picture and using staysails for strong wind conditions.
    when it really blows like 35 knots+ , i can furl the genoa and go my way by reefed mainsail and small staysail. what would the pointing ability of this conbination?
     

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  13. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I would put the staysail closer to the bow. You need more sail forward as the wind increases. The pointing ability should be the same, I think.
    The two headsails will be a great combination together on a reach. in my experience, cutters are best on a reach.
     
  14. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Is the propeller spinning when under sail? As well as the noise, that would likely increase drag.
     

  15. urisvan
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    urisvan Senior Member

    the reach is not a problem. beating ability is important.
    and yes the propeller make noise under sail. i fix it by pulling the throttle back and when it is on gear it doesn't move.
     
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