Bayliner 175 cracked engine block

[bajansailor]

Excellent news!

 

[DogCavalry]

He pulled up to the dock, wth an inch of fuel in the last tank. Nothing to spare. Shut the Johnson down, and we could not get her started again. Johnson Heat Soak?

 

[cracked_ribs]

Oh jeez...guess that emergency buffer 3 gallon tank was mission critical after all.

Without knowing more details, my first stop would be plugs... running a two stroke on which you have not thoroughly tested the carburetors close to 100km on the first real outing is no joke.

The original tank was connected when the boat left the dock (and was mostly empty so it got filled with fresh mix), the 3 gallon is my own emergency backup tank and had fresh mix, and the other 6 gallon was of course brand new and had fresh mix. So it can't have sucked up anything from the original tank, or it would have stopped before switching tanks.

Fuel is therefore not the likely problem. Air is not likely. Compression isn't likely because it would mean serious mechanical failure which would likely have been obvious before the engine was shut down.

Between the extremely demanding first day and the fact that lots of two stroke motors are hard on plugs, particularly if running a bit rich which I mentioned to Tom I thought it might be, I'd check spark, swap in new plugs if they look dicey, and see what it does.

Sorry to hear it is giving you a headache - I started it repeatedly cold and hot and found it pretty easy-starting, so to me, everything points to plugs and maybe a slightly rich jetting.

I found it wanted very little choke time when cold and none when hot, which is common in OMC motors in my experience and which also is typical of jetting a little on the rich side.

 

[DogCavalry]

Tom/BB is with me at Subway. He says it was very challenging seas. A lot of constant throttle work. Brutal fuel consumption. Very hard to restart when changing fuel tanks, but ran perfectly once restarted. We sat for 5 minutes before repositioning at the dock, and would not restart. So the infamous Johnson Heat Soak. Was that 87 octane gas with ethanol, or 92 octane without ethanol?

Tom says to tell you he's really sore.

And thank you again, @cracked_ribs .

 

[cracked_ribs]

That was all zero ethanol gas from the gas co-op near me; I believe it's 89 octane but maybe 91. I'd have to check to be able to swear to one or the other. But it's the same gas (literally from the same pump) I run in my Evinrude 2-strokes and was the same stuff I ran when commuting every day with an old 4-stroke.

I could believe sore. I took my own boat out and was on the water when he texted from second narrows...we detoured outside of porlier pass to do a bit of fishing on the way to the island we have a place on. It was about as much as you'd want to do in a boat that size. I had the family on board and came back inside, and still the areas with significant fetch were similar to what the Halibut Bank buoy was reading.

 

[DogCavalry]

Okay, then it's definitely not JHS. Well, plugs are easy. Definitely going to get manuals for the 70 and the 150 Johnson. Beers on my deck, some day soon.

 

[BlueBell]

Woo-hoo! What a ride!
Blowin more than I thought it would.

Good job @cracked_ribs for setting her up nice, thank you.
It ran great. Lots of steering and throttle work negotiating challenging seas.
Crossing following seas with increasing fetch with my advance.

I've never, ever been so prepared to sink! (9C water temp year round)
I was a bit warm by the time I got to the other side. A lot of work.
Big waves I would have never gone out in without the BC Ferries moving breakwater (Queen of Oak Bay, 20-knots).
She's old school and kicks up some surf herself.
I tailed her 2/3's of the way across until the first tank ran dry.
Change wasn't quick enough and she got away from me.
Bigger seas without her for sure. Slowed me down.
Increased workload for sure.
No bow burying, but close.

Thought I had loads of fuel but all the throttle work combined with potential rich mixture, left it a bit close.
I'm sore today.

 

[BlueBell]

Okay, then it's definitely not JHS. Well, plugs are easy. Definitely going to get manuals for the 70 and the 150 Johnson. Beers on my deck, some day soon.

JHS still entirely possible John, I wouldn't rule it out yet.
While waiting for the ferry to depart (it left late and we were early), I was doing some maneuvering
and shutting down to save fuel and to see how the boat reacted adrift in the wind.
Restarting became more difficult.
However, after an hour maintaining 20-knots, it started okay.
Check the plugs and see how they look.
Replace them and see how it starts before messing with anything else.
(i.e. don't change anything during the diagnostic process or you'll "lose the rabbit".)

On that note, a diagnostic question/thought:
Why was it hard to start all the times after it had been running fine but sat for three minutes, hot?

 

[DogCavalry]

Unbelievable!!

Using our loaner boat with the brand new 70hp Yamaha, pulled up to our dock, looked back to check position of outboard, nothing but steam rolling out of the telltale. Immediately shut it down. Sculled to the dock. Starboard side grill over the intake broken off. That's 3 down. Am I cursed? I was supposed to die a loser, and accidentally f'd it up by being lucky in my friends, so now the books got to be balanced? Anyway, I'm unhappy.

 

[bajansailor]

Oh dear.
Looking on the bright side, it could have been much worse - thankfully you shut it down immediately.
And lets hope that it is just an impeller replacement job to get it going again, and that there is not more damage to the engine itself.

 

[BlueBell]

Rats!
It was pissing good yesterday.
Got that manual yet or are you going to take it in?
Impeller replacement should be straight forward.

 

[fallguy]

Probably solving it all. Rough seas cause much trouble.

Tank crud unless she had a filter.

overheat from impeller

does it have an alarm?

 

[BlueBell]

@fallguy
It's getting rather confusing but this is not the engine that was subjected to rough seas lately at my hand.
This is the loaner boat with the new Yamaha 70hp o/b.
It's just been running back and forth over the 2.4nm commute.
(I answer for John as his reception is hugely limited at his new place.)

 

[BlueBell]

@DogCavalry
Who knows how long that "starboard side grill" has been missing...
It may have simply ingested something small but big enough to jam the impeller.
Open up the impeller housing and have a look.
Hopefully, simply removing it will solve the problem.
Keep an active eye on that pisser until you get the "grill" replaced.

EDIT: It could even be a piece of the "broken" grill, sadly.

 

[cracked_ribs]

On that note, a diagnostic question/thought:
Why was it hard to start all the times after it had been running fine but sat for three minutes, hot?

Now that does sound a little heat-soaky to me. Water stops going through the jackets, stuff on the outside of the motor gets hotter.

BUT: it's also true that those older strokers are all a bit individualistic as far as starting procedure. The motor on the back of the boat I took out after abandoning you to the mercy of Neptune there can be started in a maximum of two pulls at any temperature...IF you have the throttle and choke positioned correctly for that temperature.

If you choke it too much when hot, it fouls and will fight you tooth and nail; you may not be able to start it without removing the plugs. It took me probably a hundred repetitions of starting it (which probably included at least a thousand pulls, likely more, beause the learning phase involved a lot of failure) at various temperatures before I got to the point that I felt I could always start it. But now I never think twice about it. If it's been sitting for a few days, two pulls. If not, one and done. This same motor gave me FITS before I dialed it in.

The previous engine, which John has seen photos of running while held together and to my transom with rope after a cellulose-derived kinetic disassembly, was the same way, but had slightly different preferences.

Ergo, it may be more a matter of finding the motor's specific starting quirks when hot than an indication of a specific mechanical problem. That might potentially explain why I had no issue starting it hot on Thursday, too: I have spent a LOT of time over the last six months dialing in rope-start two strokes which you really want to get right in as few tries as possible. The default for me when hot is no choke/prime, but maybe 1/4 throttle.

I didn't do any engine work before sending her off (partly there was no time, partly the link and sync was fairly good right out of the gate). But all carbed engines can benefit from a careful eye.

The other think that springs to mind is that those engines had a solenoid for the priming system that pumped in the rich mix for cold starts...they also have a manual valve that can be used to block the fuel passage open.

It's a great setup if you're familiar with it: even if the solenoid fails, you can use the valve to get the rich starting mix. But if the valve is in the wrong position, you're getting a richer mix than necessary and it'll be hard to start hot. The starting was good enough when I used it that I didn't verify the position of the valve but it's dead simple to check; it's a little red switch on the left hand side of the motor, if you're standing in the boat facing the engine. It should ordinarily be pointing aft IIRC. I didn't think of it because I don't personally own one with that setup and haven't worked on one in a long time. But after thinking a while it popped into my head.

Here's a great video from Dangar Marine (who I love) that explains the system in some detail:

Anyway it's possible that the heat was getting to the ignition components; it got worked really hard for a long time. But I have to say that to me, the symptoms sound more like an over-rich mix for a hot motor.