Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Thanks Phil, I saw that one a few days ago, but I cannot see, that I will be able to buy such system for a boat. Having liquid nitrogen and liquid bromine on board, may pose some tricky safety measures. Super Capacitors can only go "boom" with short circuit, although we have fuses, we can replace.
    What is your opinion on how it could become mobile enough for a yacht or boat. Bert
     
  2. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    The interesting part to me is it's versatility. Power and capacity are independent of one another with flow batteries; and you have the option of refueling (offloading dead electrolyte and reloading with energized stuff); so you could even use 100% shore recharging or off peak recharging if you had enough of the stuff. It gets directly at the recharging issue. Designing for 99% capability with respect to onboard recharging is a lot different from designing for 85% capability and buying the odd batch of charged stuff whenever you need it. But for the foreseeable future, it appears that it is best suited for industrial scale development for use in load balancing electric grids with large wind and solar facilities. What I don't understand is why the round trip efficiency is still so low. I guess it's a cost trade off. You'll know things are looking up when the efficiency of the units beats wet lead. The specific energy is over half that of diesel and nearly equal to coal (but you carry the dead stuff around with you).
     
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Are we there yet?

    :)
     
  4. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    "Flow battery" didn't ring any bells, so I had to look that up. I guess we used to call them fuel cells: two electrodes, a membrane and one or more fluids circulating between them. It works, is not efficient and quite expensive.
    The news a I understood it, is that in this experimental device they omitted the membrane and call that a major step forward.

    Of course everything we have today is the result of endless experimenting in the past, but do we really have to be informed every step of the way? I personally don't mind waiting until something really viable has been developed and I fear this is another dead end. How do they pump HBr around? That stuff eats almost anything!
     
  5. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    No,

    like CDK says so often, when Universities needs more money for their research, they put a half baked demonstration out for us, just to get more funds. I agree with CDK, wish that we would get more manufacturers making announcements, their products are normally ready for purchase. Bert
     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    WHAT?

    You mean all this green talk is more smoke and mirrors?

    About those manufactures, a lot of them got their money and went bankrupt ....

    Actually, there is a lot of benefit to battery power, but it is usually at a larger scale and cost than civilian industry is willing to pay ...
     
  7. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    This is one of the most comprehensive discussions on batteries I've ever seen!

    STICKEY ?????

    I see that my 2 cents worth has already been mentioned!

    We have a high tech battery R&D enterprise in collaboration with the University working on classified research for military and space applications. I'd sure like to take a tour in there! :)
     
  8. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    That is very nice from you to compliment Brian Eiland for starting this thread and his idea. I do have picked up some good tips.
    Bert
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  11. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Brian, Good evening to you. The problem is that it may deliver double the current, but the Voltage is dropped by nearly a half. ( 1.7 to 2,5 Volt instead of 3.3 Volt ) The end result is that power wise, we will still have the same weight/power ratio and may only gain about 10% - 20%. Typical for a development announcement, they probably need more money for their research.
    Bert
     
  12. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Thanks Bert, I was sure a more knowledgeable person than myself would chime in with more informative material. I just saw this come across my desk, and figured it belonged in this subject thread.
    Brian
     
  13. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Brian,
    Yes, keep up the good thread. I am just disappointed that there is too much good news from the development people and not from production/manufacturing/sales. I am dying to get hold of better batteries with more power and less weight. Maybe before I kick the bucket, it will materialize. I saw a very nice super capacitor 12 Volt automotive battery from Maxwell, with electronics to regulate and flatten the discharge curve. I wish that more money would be spent on the development of super capacitors. Have a great time. Bert
     
  14. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    I don't think this is correct.

    The article states everywhere comparisons between Wh/kg numbers not amps.

    from abstract: The researchers developed a sulfur-graphene oxide (S-GO) nanocomposite cathode that vastly improves the cycle life of Li/S cells by immobilizing sulfur and inhibiting polysulfides during operation. Tests show that the Berkeley Lab Li/S cell had an estimated specific energy of ~500 Wh/kg, more than double that of current Li-ion cells (~200 Wh/kg)

    That indeed (if true in practical future applications) is pretty significant.

    link to abstract http://techportal.eere.energy.gov/technology.do/techID=1141
     

  15. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Kerosene,
    For me, as soon a manufacturer makes them and I have tested them, I will apologize to you. But in the meantime, I also quote from the article "delivering double the current of a Li-ion battery at a voltage between about 1.7 and 2.5 volts, depending on the state of charge of the cell." Means for me 1 Amp x 3.3 Volt - 3.3 watt and their's is 2 Amp x 2,5 Volt = 5 watt. (or even worse 2 Amp x 1.7 Volt = 3.4 watt.)This for me is not double the power. Wait and see when a manufacturer brings them on the market.
    Bert
     
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