Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    I had a look at them. The volume needed for 10 Kwh = 8 x 4 x 8 dm = 256 litre while the number of RT12240 EV I bought , is 0.8 x 1.8 x 1.7 x 35 = 85.7 Litre and the weight for those 35 (also 10Kwh) is 248 Kg. Not a fraction of the weight, like it is claimed, only 10% more over the 220 Kg. What I don't know is the lifetime of those Zinc batteries. My experience from SLABS (sealed lead acid batteries) is very good. Some of them I have here already for 8 years and are still OK. But I immediately re-charge them to just under the gassing voltage of 13.6/8 Volt and keep it there until next usage.
    Bert
     
  2. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

  3. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    I extracted this from Gizmag and wondering whether one will be able to have 20 x (i.e. 120 watt per m2 at an average) , suddenly to have 2.4 Kw. If this is the case, one is getting closer to have a seagoing electric boat.
    6 of those cones would mean some 15 horsepower. Enough to power a 30 feet yacht. The wind resistance would be a problem and also the rolling of the boat. But any comment?

    From Gizmag:

    For the vast majority of those looking to harvest energy from the sun to satisfy domestic or business electricity needs, the photovoltaic world is a static and flat one. Even many large scale solar farms feature row upon row of rigid panels, although there may at least be some movement as the panels follow the path of the sun as it moves across the sky. V3Solar's Spin Cell is a little different. It's claimed to be capable of generating over 20 times more electricity than a flat panel with the same area of PV cells thanks to a combination of concentrating lenses, dynamic spin, conical shape, and advanced electronics.
    The V3 Spin Cell actually features two cones, one made up of hundreds of triangular PV cells and a static hermetically-sealed outer lens concentrator comprising a series of interlocking rings and a number of tubular lenses spaced equally around the outside surface. According to V3Solar (previously Solarphasec), the Spin Cell's cone has been set at an angle of 56 percent to enable capture of the sun's light at more angles than flat PV panels, which negates the need for separate tracking systems and also accommodates the different angles of the sun throughout the year.
    The lenses concentrate light on the PV cells beneath and by spinning the inner cone, the excessive heat problems often associated with static systems that use lenses or mirrors to focus the light in one area are avoided. The PV layer is continuously cycled in and out of the concentrated light, creating a dynamic shutter and flash rate strobe effect that excites the electrons in what's described as a perfectly timed dance of light.
    "Imagine holding your hand steady beneath a magnifying glass," says V3Solar. "The heat would build up to a point of discomfort, even pain. Now imagine moving your hand back and forth below the magnifying glass. You still receive the same light, but very little heat."
    "The spin is powered by a small amount of electricity that comes from the sun," V3Solar's Chief Marketing Officer Robert Styler told Gizmag. "It only requires one amp because the unit floats on magnets, there is almost no resistance, and the magnets are arranged to push the spin forward. The rate of spin is controlled by electronic feedback loops to maximize production."
    "The panels produce DC, which runs to the magnets in the base ring. As these spin past the magnets in the stator ring, AC is produced ... just like a standard generator. It is then conditioned through the power electronics to be grid ready. We can also produce DC with the flick of a switch if that is required."
    The company has just announced that a Spin Cell prototype recently underwent third party testing where it was verified as being capable of generating over 20 times more electricity than a static flat panel with the same area of photovoltaic cells. The test involved wirelessly connecting the module to data loggers which recorded information on such things as heat, revolution speed, and output.
    It was also found that the layer of PV cells never exceeded 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35°C), and determined that the module would perform indefinitely at 20 times concentration. More tests are scheduled to analyze performance at 40, 50 and 75 times light concentration levels.
    V3Solar has recently joined forces with Nectar Design to complete the engineering and commercial design of its one meter high and one meter wide Spin Cell module, and has just secured its first licensing agreement to supply 800,000 Spin Cell units for a large solar farm.
     
  4. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Their website is here. It reads like a highschool science fair project that had run out of time.

    http://v3solar.com/technology/

    There is nothing going on here that hasn't be done before in more practical approaches. How will they get the heat out? It's sealed and the heat sink isn't the chassis. What is the reverse EMF caused by the current flow and magnets. Very condescending statements on their website. They may not understand how their TV works or how these things work, but some some people actually do understand this stuff; and investor's tend to find them and ask questions before investing.

    My best guess is that it is a scam, pure and simple. Nectar doesn't list them on their client list, but that's neither here nor there.

    A couple of challenges for the materials folks at Nectar- the raised portion of lenses need to be highly effective, but they will suffer the most wear, degradation, and be most susceptible to damage.

    How are the units interconnected? Site wiring represents a major source of inefficiency as well as cost. Strobing can increase voltage, which is good, but are you giving all the gains back in the interconnects?

    Lets see it go side by side with this on an equal cost basis at the grid.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amonix7700.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
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  5. Red Dwarf
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    Red Dwarf Senior Member

    That is complete BS. Like you said it is some sort of scam to take advantage of people. This is why we need science classes.

    The amount of solar radiation that hits the surface is fixed by many uncontrollable factors, latitude, weather, atmosphere etc. The point is I don't care what you do you can not get more power out of a square meter than was there to begin with.

    This gives me an idea. I could start a company and guarantee I can double the output of your solar panels for a small fee. After you pay me ship me your panels and I will place them in the Sahara desert - profit.
     
  6. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    I do know that unless you have diodes,a solar panel can drain your batteries at night.

    Seeing as half of the spinner is in darkness-is there any loss in that half?

    And being involved in stocks and such-before I spent a penny on investment I'd want to see it sitting in the middle of a field that I choose right before the test.
    Or have verified lab test results.

    Then we'll see.
    Perpetual motion scammers have wired entire buildings to create electromagnetic currents to induct power into their machines.
     
  7. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    They don't have batteries and put it straight into (via their magnets) into AC.

    Very good point. It depends how they have wired all the cells.

    Folks, if I listen to you Americans, then you have only scammers as inovators. I like to believe that indeed some very good idea's have come from that part of the world. Unix, Internet (that is a bad one), Windows, Intel, hardrive's, C8000 Onix, and a million of other very inovative products. Their idea may have something we don't know. First at all, it is a cone and therefore it has already more solarcells then on a flat square meter. Because it turns, the cooling is there. I made display's with "stroboscopisch" similar effect. i.e. the LED's with high currents for a short period of time and your eyse pick it up as very bright. They have a similar concentration of focussed light for a short period of time. I like to believe they may have something. Not all Americans are crooks.
    The problem is, some flipping oil company may pay them out, to keep it in the safe. We then believe thereafter that it did not work. (maybe like EEstor). I am worried that, like EEstor, they made a working protoptype, but will not be able to produce it in vast quantities.
     
  8. Red Dwarf
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    Red Dwarf Senior Member

    I agree with your points but comments like this prove it is a con.

    "V3Solar's Spin Cell is a little different. It's claimed to be capable of generating over 20 times more electricity than a flat panel with the same area of PV cells thanks to a combination of concentrating lenses, dynamic spin, conical shape, and advanced electronics."

    They couldn't be reasonable and claim a 10% improvement which would be laudable, they had to go for the moon and claim 20x's improvement. That is just physically impossible as a normal solar cell is already around 15-20%.

    Here are some facts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency
     
  9. wolfenzee
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    wolfenzee Junior Member

    With all my other projects going on I wasn't paying too much attention to my electrical system. But as a lot of my on deck and/or big projects started to wind up I realized my wiring was done by an old wooden boat builder 40 years ago with what they had available back then. As I am upgrading and/or adding to most of the electrical components I might as well rewire...it only really gets expensive when you have a "marine electrician" do it for you. You should know how your electrical system works and how to do it anyway.
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  11. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Good evening Brian,
    We always keep a good thread from you going. Brian, what do you think. The point of what was debated here is: If concentrated photons are bombarded on a normal PV cell for a short period of time, can one exceed the 100% versus the normal WIKI 18 -20% with a theoretical 26% per square meter. I think, yes, it can be done. Because, it is the same principle as multiplexing. High energy for a short period of time. The question is, what kind of lens system have they discovered to do that. How will the heat be disposed off.

    In 1978 I presented to all the CEO's of this country the 8 bit microprocessor. If somebody would have told me that we will be making sub micron microprocessors today, I would have glared at him and maybe thought that he was over optimistic. They were glaring at me when we told them that one day we would see microprocessors in most equipment.

    P.S. can you picture a small solar car with two cones on the bonnet. It would look like a Rhino. I give it the thumbs up.

    I like to give it the benefit of the doubt whether V3Solar.com has come up with a good solution. I think as long the oil industry and other affected parties stays out of the deal, we could see indeed a nice inovative new idea on mass production and used in many applications we haven't thought about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  12. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    I was impressed by the V3 website, clever idea to make AC by rotating the solar panel, very convincing animation.
    So I thought about what could be the flaw in their reasoning...

    To get 50 Hz the cone must rotate at 3000 rpm! That makes it a noisy, energy consuming, expensive and very dangerous gyroscope. And it only works in the polar regions with a bright sun near the horizon because half of the cone must be in darkness.
    The idea to use magnets and coils to make AC is also very impractical: to maintain a small air gap on an object that large requires expensive and heavy constructions.

    V3 claims that with lenses and mirrors the output can be 20 times that of conventional photovoltaic systems, but that is only theory, the cone as shown on their site carries just ordinary cells.

    So the only tab on the top of the screen that tells what it is all about is "INVESTORS".
     
  13. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Yes indeed, they have 60 Hz and it is even worse, but they could use multiple poles and thereby reducing the revs per minute to and acceptable 360 revs per minute.

    Correct, but I am wondering what they used for a lens system to increase the number of photon's per square cm. The use of normal ordinairy cells is then justified.

    I think positive, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I love to know who the outside , third party "auditor" was who backs them up. Next door neighbour??? Bert
     
  14. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    O.K. What does it mean for us sailors. Can we use a smaller panel with the same power or get double the power than with the normal size competitors manufacturer's panel. I agree with CDK, that too often Universities/venture capital companies are out to get publicity for their funding purpose. But at least this is a company who is actual manufacturing solar panels.

    Anybody who has comment or experience with this kind of CPV technology on a yacht? Financial advantage and/or size reduction for on a yacht or electric boat?

    Here is the article .

    "During a period of testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory back in May, a peak efficiency of 34.2 percent was achieved, which Amonix claims is the highest ever reached by a PV module under real-world conditions. However, Amonix is only now drawing attention to the breakthrough, which saw its own record of 30.3 percent efficiency broken. Amonix modules employ concentrated photovoltaics (CPV) technology, which add optical whizbangery such as mirrors and lenses to concentrate more direct sunlight onto individual solar cells. The technology is not to be confused with concentrated solar power, which applies similar optical technology to solar thermal systems which heat water, but also generate electricity with the addition of a heat engine. The solar module efficiency is the efficiency of the panel, and not the same as the efficiency of individual solar cells from which it's comprised. At the moment, solar cell efficiency can just exceed 43 percent for concentrated systems. It's the module efficiency, however, which reflects the amount of electricity a PV system can produce. The breakthrough could provide a shot in the arm for Amonix, which, the Las Vegas Review Journal recently reported, closed its Las Vegas manufacturing center in July. Though it's tempting to write Amonix's hardships into the narrative of Western solar manufacturers struggling to compete in a market awash with cheap solar panels from China, the Review Journal piece hints at a more complex and unfortunate cocktail of woes. Whatever the difficulties, the technological edge that this record demonstrates certainly can't hurt the company's chances of future success. Source: Amonix/Gizmag"
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012

  15. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Is this the battery we have been waiting for?
    (as long it isn't a April fool's joke)
    Pity it is not rechargeable. but to have sufficient energy to drive 1600 km on one battery, could mean future prospects for the boat industry. One day some clever person will make this battery a rechargeable one. Who knows.

    Bert
    Here the article from Gizmag.

    "The company says the aluminum plate anodes in its aluminum-air battery have an energy density of 8 kWh/kg, but the batteries are not rechargeable. Once the energy is expended, the plates, which add up to around 55 pounds (25 kg) per battery, need to be replaced. However, the company points out that aluminum is easily recyclable and that swapping the battery out for a fresh one is quicker than recharging.

    Because they aren't rechargeable, Phinergy says its aluminum-air batteries would be more suitable as a range-extender technology working in conjunction with a traditional lithium-ion battery. The lithium-ion battery would would handle the general day-to-day commuting energy needs with the aluminum-air battery providing extra range when required. It is this dual setup that the company has used in a demonstration vehicle that can be driven over 200 miles (330 km) in a single continuous trip as shown in the video below.

    However, Phinergy is also developing a rechargeable zinc-air battery that it claims is resistant to the dendrite formation that has plagued other zinc-air batteries.

    The company believes its metal-air battery technology could be commercially available in vehicles as soon as 2017, with smart grid energy storage, consumer electronic devices, UAVs and boats cited as other potential applications for the technology.

    Phinergy’s demonstration electric vehicle and the aluminum-air battery technology that powers it can be seen in the video below.

    Source: Gismag and Phinergy via Bloomberg TV
     
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