Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. JonathanCole
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 442
    Likes: 8, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Hawaii

    JonathanCole imagineer

    Now you are inventing your facts as I recall no mention anywhere of a 20 year warranty.

    And, speaking for myself, I can only fervently hope that these guys at Altairnano succeed at what they are trying to do, because if they do it is a major breakthrough that will change the entire world of energy and all the related technologies including boats.
     
  2. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Jonathan,

    I wish you every success with your electric catamaran. One day we might arrange to meet one another in mid ocean half way around the world and share a cup or two.

    As for misleading claims, political parties do it all the time.:D :D :D

    About the warranty business, you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

    On matters of Altairnano's lithium ion costs, I can only refer you to Nigel Calder's opinion on page 107 in http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ (Not surprisingly, it's also very expensive!)

    Anyway, it's all yet to happen. Nigel Calder is going with Odyssey batteries, I'm looking at Valence and in 10 years, who knows? Death & taxes, the only two constants.

    Pericles
     
  3. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 109, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

    Does a Rolls Royce come with a 20 year warranty, even though many have a 50+ year life?

    A 5 year warranty , on a 20 year expected life would be fine.

    "In a battery that has been tested out to 15,000 deep discharge cycles, and capable of utilizing the full rated capacity,"

    Great in an everyday used scenerio, for most boaters , it would be decades worth of battery life , in a recreational boat the batts could perhaps outlive the boat?

    FF
     
  4. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    As part of your correspondent's unyielding and fearless vision quest for the facts about batteries for boaters, I unearthed a nugget from December last, which bears scrutiny here at the forum. At the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Anaheim CA, Valence Technology introduced their new line of large-format lithium ion batteries designed for use in electric and hybrid vehicles. The three comments are revealing.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/1...roduces-large-format-lithium-batter/#comments

    Reactions yesterday to the CARB announcement last week are available at.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/0...-creates-huge-new-market-for-plug-in-hybrids/

    What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, (Page 3)

    http://www.valence.com/assets/pdf/evs_faq.pdf

    If the prices are of the level that a Resuscitation Trolley should be close at hand whilst being told the figures, then a 5 years warranty will not be enough. :D :D :D

    However, the Synchronizing Inverter article by Nigel Calder on page 74 in

    http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

    suggests that Odyssey batteries could fulfill our needs and continue to be with us for a good while longer.

    Good luck,

    Pericles
     
  5. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

  6. JonathanCole
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 442
    Likes: 8, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Hawaii

    JonathanCole imagineer

    Pericles wrote:
    "What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, "

    I have gotten prices per kwHr from Altairnano. The price that they quoted me last summer was 4 x what they have now announced the price for their most recent large battery delivery. They only started manufacturing in September of 2006 on a limited production scale. That means that in less than a year their costs are rapidly going down.

    A123, Altairnano and Valence technology are all using lithium based batteries, but the lithium is combined with different elements giving a wide range of claimed characteristics. For uses such as a boat, I would suggest that the most important issues are safety, long-life and low cost per lifetime kwHr stored. To me it appears that the Altairnano battery has distinct advantages in these areas. But of course, these are all relatively young companies, they can fail for reasons that have nothing to do with their relative merits. Poor management, miscalculations, competitor dirty tricks, etc. The outcomes of many of the most pressing world issues may rest on the success of companies like these. May the wind always be at their backs!
     
  7. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Hello Jonathan,

    Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please? I emailed the European, Northern Ireland office of Valence Technology yesterday for the cost and weight of 1200 Ahrs of Epoch Lithium Phosphate power.

    Odyssey battery British prices for most of the range are here.

    http://www.tayna.co.uk/catalog/295/2/Odyssey-Batteries-Odyssey-Drycell-Batteries-page2.html

    ODYSSEY PC2150T
    12V 2150 Cranking Amps
    ODYSSEY PC2150T <br />12V 2150 Cranking Amps (Odyssey Batteries - Odyssey Drycell Batteries)Specifications
    Drycell Battery
    Without Metal Jacket
    12 Volt
    94 Ah @ 20hr rate
    1090 CCA
    2150 Cranking Amps for 5 Seconds
    200 Minute Reserve Capacity
    3/8 corrosion-free stud terminal
    Suitcase lifting handle
    Cycle life @ 77°F 400 at 100% DOD
    -40°F to 140°F Temperature Range

    Dimensions(mm)
    330 x 173 x 240
    Price: £329.99

    I waiting for the PC 2250 price.

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
  8. JonathanCole
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 442
    Likes: 8, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Hawaii

    JonathanCole imagineer

    Pericles wrote: Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please?

    Actually, as an OEM, I have signed a non-disclosure agreement with Altairnano. Since their prices are not published, I guess that means I cannot directly divulge that information. But it can be deduced from other information I have already stated. It appears that this battery is such a radical breakthrough, especially in safety, durability and power (extremely fast charge times), that they have their pick of many competing entities for the limited production that they are currently capable of. In other words their production may be sold out for the near term.

    For those interested in this battery technology I am uploading publicly available information about Altairnano batteries.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. sparky_wap
    Joined: Mar 2008
    Posts: 49
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 50
    Location: Suffolk, VA USA

    sparky_wap Junior Member

    Excellent Advance

    Now that we know the technology can be brought to market, we (consumers) can hope a price war will soon follow. It the technology finds mass production in the automotive and computer market, the price will drop drastically in the next few years.

    I know this is off the boating topic sort of but I am interested in plug-in electric cars. My personal development of my plug-in (for charging) electric boat has sparked interest in reducing reliability on crude oil. The oil companies have been sticking it to us and it is somewhat our fault as consumers. Now, I just can't see rewarding them buy buying anymore overpriced fuel than I have to. Charge up on nuke, wind, hydro... and runs on battery...

    Joe
     
  10. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    From their Q & A section.

    NanoSafe battery price
    Q: How much do Altairnano batteries cost?
    A: Altairnano batteries are currently priced near $2.00 USD per watt hour. Altairnano expects to achieve significant price reductions over the next 18 months, resulting in a price around $1.00 USD per Wh.

    http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html

    Pericles
     
  11. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 6,823
    Likes: 120, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1882
    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Thanks Pericles, - Good to see things happening, how does that compare with your current choice/program?
     
  12. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Brian,

    Even at $1 per watt/hour, a 1200 Ahr battery capacity would cost more than the bleedin' catamaran, as far as I can work it out. A complete non starter. Have a look at page 74 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

    As we say over here. "It's all occurring!"

    Watch this space. (I must stop drinking these delicious SA wines. They doth befuddle me.):eek:

    Perry
     
  13. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 6,823
    Likes: 120, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1882
    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    A friend who I knew whilst working around Carnarvon in Western Australia, name of Ray Ellis had developed a system where we could parallel an inverter driven by 20 x 12 v batteries and the AC stage of the charging motor to drive high power requirements on the pastoral station near Gascoyne Junction. we never got to installing that stage... I don't know how, but the first part was a fantastic improvement on the 4 hour runs in the morning and evening for refrigeration & etc down to 1 hour a day recharging instead of 8 hours noise...
     
  14. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,006
    Likes: 133, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Yep, the batteries were used as a buffer. The fuel bills went down and the life of the pastoral generator was extended as well, I guess. Replace the diesel generator with a wind powered generator and a few solar panels, the result should be the all electric sailing boat. Most of the electricity will be produced via regeneration whilst sailing, hence a large catamaran for speed and comfort. It's too much pain for an ancient mariner to sail a monohull fast enough to make the equation successful.:D :D

    This is a vessel for circumnavigation. I am looking at setting off and just cruisin'.

    Using Odyssey batteries from EnerSys in Wales, the Ampair wind generator and Sillette saildrives from England, the Victron inverter from Holland and the motors from Asmomarine in Denmark, the components are not hard to assemble. No need for exotic batteries. :D :D

    BTW. the retracting electric motors from Gideon Goudsmit are also under consideration.

    http://www.africancats.com/resources/documents/PRESS_GreenMotion_ENG1467.pdf

    All the best,

    Perry
     

  15. colinstone
    Joined: Feb 2004
    Posts: 45
    Likes: 0, Points: 6, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Oxford, UK

    colinstone Junior Member

    12 x 2v 920Ah C10 (dry charged) cost me £20 each. 150 litres SG 1280 acid was another £100.
     

    Attached Files:

Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.