Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Kaptin-Jer
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    Kaptin-Jer Semi-Pro

    How can I get more info? Batteries? recharg systems? Cost? I'm in Boca Raton area.
     
  2. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Kaptin-Jer, Follow the links - there are 4 or so parallel threads cross linked relating to motors, batteries, generators and general discussion, Waht you find, please add by posting a link... Thanks...

    Pericles posts have links so also with Brians...
     
  3. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Let's look at these again.

    * they are a no maintenance battery,
    * with supercapacitor-like power characteristics (the rate at which they can take on and release a charge), resulting in amazingly fast charge up times,
    * Energy density characteristics between NiMH and Li-ion,
    * with 15,000 deep discharge cycles (if you did one cycle per day that would be 41+ years)
    * a claimed 20 year life
    * 90%+ throughput efficiency
    * An extremely wide operating temperature range
    * No danger of combustion
    * Environmentally benign
    * No other battery system that I know of comes close to these specifications. Certainly not Valence Technology

    All highly desirable of course, but these are claims, or another word could be "opinions". The facts are that as yet, these units apparently do not work as stated. That's the point. A dream for some, a nightmare for others. It is not necessary to wait for when and if these units become available, probably at prices that only nation states can afford, fully electric cruising catamarans can be built right now.

    After all, I could decide that all the present methods and materials used for building boats are totally unsatisfactory and that I should wait for the invention of a new, superlight, super strong, material that costs next to nothing. Until then, I shall not compromise and will not own a boat. That would be plain stupid and so is waiting for Altairnano. Proof of that 20 year warranty will not happen in my lifetime. BTW, I think you missed this.

    If I'm wrong, I apologise, etcetera.

    In the vernacular, the term "quantum leap" has come to mean an abrupt change or "step change", especially an advance or augmentation. The term dates back to early-to-mid-20th century, coinciding with the discoveries of quantum mechanics. "Quantum leap" has come to mean an abrupt change or "step change", especially an advance or augmentation. In the popular sense, the term is usually applied to mean a large or significant change, which is thus not strictly correct. Which is why I write in English, not vernacular.:D :D

    Pericles
     
  4. Kaptin-Jer
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    Kaptin-Jer Semi-Pro

    Pericles,
    Have you heard of what became of the battery technology that was used in the EV-1 It allowed the EV-1 to travel 100 miles at 80 mph. I Think it was a NIMH system battery, or that was changed for something else (a little confusing), but It did work well enough for GM to buy the patent and bury it.
     
  5. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Kaptin-Jer

    Think about it. If GM did buy the patent and bury it, then how do you know about it? GM manufactures cars and if they had an advanced battery system to propel cars, that is head and shoulders above the competition, don't you think they would bring it to market and reclaim the number 1 car maker position from Toyota?

    An oil company, on the other hand, might be concerned about its sales of oil, but these stories should be sensibly ignored, as we ignore cold fusion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

    Conspiracy theories are fun, so long as you don't believe them.:D :D :D :D :D

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

    Have fun,

    Pericles
     
  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    'Forever Battery'

    Good afternoon gentleman,
    Well it's happening again, my being bombarded by this 'Forever Battery' claim. So I googled it and finally found something other than a few Chinese battery companies calling themselves 'forever battery'
    http://stockideas.org/content/view/1602/87/
    http://www.untappedwealthonline.com/battery-e2a.html
    http://oneguysinvestments.com/gumshoe/comments.php?DiscussionID=900
    The Most Startling Innovation In 208 Years Is About to Be Unleashed On the Market…
    "I believe the company I reveal in my latest research report could easily make those gains pale by comparison. And I’d like to rush it to you now. It’s called “The Forever Battery: Making Today’s Batteries Obsolete… And Its Investors Wildly Wealthy”. And it’s yours FREE when you subscribe to Untapped Wealth. "
    Tim Fields
    Editor, Untapped Wealth
    Trinity Investment Research

    Gumshoe reply:I think this is xdsl, anybody get this?


    Those are all some pretty startling praises, so I went to visit XDSL, mPhase Technologies
    http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080326/0379601
    http://www.mphasetech.com/

    They have some sort of 'coming out party' this coming 3Apr. As I look thru a lot of there info, I see their claims for extremely long (forever) shelf life, but I don't see rechargeable, and a few other factors. Am I missing something about this 'great' new battery??
     
  7. Kaptin-Jer
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    Kaptin-Jer Semi-Pro

    Think about it. If GM did buy the patent and bury it, then how do you know about it?

    Obviously you have never seen the movie "Who killed the Electric Car" a Documentary about the EV-1. A near by Municipally showed the film a few nights ago in conjunction with a demonstration of 5-6 electric vehicles being sold locally. As architects doing work in that city we were invited. I don't know if the movie can be rented, but it is worth the effort to find out. Yes there was such a battery. No I am not a conspirator, or even a tree hugger for that matter. The battery was developed by a husband and wife team who were the Ovonic Battery Co.. At the time they were in their 70's
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Who killed the electric car? A movie from Sony.

    Driving the EV1 was unlike driving any other car. No key. No maintenance (except periodically rotating the tires and a coolant change at 100,000 miles). No visits to the gas station. No lag between pressing the pedal and getting a response from the engine. Jackrabbit starts — 0 to 30 in 3 seconds, and the prototype’s top speed was 183 mph. Production cars were limited to a top speed of 80 mph.
    Propulsion…The Gen II was powered by a 137 horsepower, 3-phase AC induction motor and used a single speed dual reduction gear set with a ratio of 10.946:1. The Gen II propulsion system had an improved drive unit, battery pack, power electronics, 6.6 kW charger, and heating and thermal control module.

    Batteries…26 valve-regulated high-capacity lead-acid (PbA) batteries were standard for the EV1 battery pack. These advanced batteries were an improvement over the pack available with the first generation EV1 and offered greater range and longer life and a nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack. This technology nearly doubled the range over the first generation battery and offered improved battery life as well.

    Range…The EV1 with the high-capacity lead-acid pack had an estimated real world driving range of 55 to 95 miles, depending on terrain, driving habits and temperature. …The range with the NiMH pack was even greater. Again, depending on terrain, driving habits, temperature and humidity, estimated real world driving range varied from 75 to 130 miles.


    Charging…The EV1 could be charged safely in all weather conditions with inductive charging. Using a 220-volt charger, charging from 0 to 100% for the new lead-acid pack took up to 5.5 to 6 hours. Charging for the nickel-metal hydride pack, which stored more energy, was 6 to 8 hours.


    April 8th 1996 news clip
    Lead-acid alternative. At General Motors, engineers are trying to deal with those limitations by working with another company to develop an alternative battery. In 1994, GM entered into a joint venture with Ovonic Battery Co., Troy, MI, to develop a nickel-metal-hydride battery that would have better energy characteristics.

    You can Goggle Ovonic, you will be amazed at this company. It's real.

    Please be open to Ideas.
    Check out your facts. You are too quick to blow someone else off. I was giving you the benifit of being somewhat of an expert on the subject, but I guess being an expert doesn't make you a smart.
     
  8. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    How many shall I need for 1200 Whrs capacity I wonder?
    How shall I connect them up?
    What will they weigh?
    How much will they cost?
    How long will they last, really?
    Can you think of any more questions Brian? :D :D

    Regards,

    Perry
     
  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    If you are a betting person and can afford to loose what you bet, then go for it.... ? all I see is hype, videos that demand more bandwidth than our slack telecom can deliver, with more "hutspar" than a conference full of Jewish marketing experts.... I will sit on the sidelines with interest waiting for product & price etc... Thanks for the info Brian...
     
  10. afrhydro
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    afrhydro Senior Member

  11. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    C'mon Kaptin-Jer,

    A film! On Discovery Channel, I suppose. No key. How do I prevent the car being stolen.:D :D See below for what I did find. Remember I wrote that oil companies might have concerns about their sales.

    In 1994, General Motors acquired a controlling interest in Ovonics's battery development and manufacturing, including patents and trade secrets controlling the manufacturing of large nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. In 2001, Texaco purchased GM's share in GM Ovonics. Critics claim that large-format NiMH batteries were commercially viable and ready for mass production, but Chevron and other oil-related interests suppressed the technology to forestall the introduction of plug-in hybrids.[40]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasys

    However, I went to the Cobasys website and there I see that Chevron Selects Cobasys NiGUARD NiMH Battery Backup Power Supply System for Data Center in Bellaire, Texas.

    http://www.cobasys.com/products/stationary_case_studies.shtml#chevron

    That doesn't seem like suppression to me, it's more like developing the product until it lives up to its hype.

    What are Toyota and Honda doing? That's the question to ask. Have they approached http://www.cobasys.com/products/transportation.shtml about their systems?

    Here's a thought. Having personally witnessed the appalling screw up at Heathrow's Terminal 5 and the damage it is still causing to the reputation to British Airways and the UK, I'd say never launch anything, be it a service or a product before it's ready.

    http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4539&edition=1&ttl=20080330234600

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/7318444.stm

    There are developments coming to the market all the time, but 9 out of ten new products fail. Let others be the guinea pigs and wait until these new technologies are reliable. That's my position, stuck in the UK because I wasn't about to fly out on holiday without my suitcase.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
  12. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    I have not been through this thread thoroughly but there are a couple of points worth noting if not already made.

    Any material that finds increased use in motor cars will suffer a price spike. The trend for lead is interesting - see attached. This is driven by rising population of cars and growing use of renewable energy installations.

    Li-ion batteries are made in small quantity but manufacturers are increasing output. A123 seem to be the ones that are doing best but all are fiddly to charge. They do have exceptionally high power density. If lithium has strong increase in demand its price will rise dramatically. The batteries are already expensive but this is due to the demand v the limited production capacity.

    In a boat, the battery can serve 3 purposes. They provide ballast so energy density is not critical. The main bank can provide both motive power and auxiliary power - just don't run them flat. They can provide energy storage while at anchor - unlike sails that are only useful when under way.

    Putting these ideas together you can get a reasonable result with a long slender hull, stabilised with batteries, that is easily driven by electric motor using both solar and wind energy collection stored in VRLA batteries. See attached concept.

    Rick W
     

    Attached Files:

  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    You can find various excerpts from this movie, as well as the whole movie I believe here on YouTube
     
  14. sparky_wap
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    sparky_wap Junior Member

    Battery technology ...

    I have not following the whole thread either but being involved in batteries in my profession might bring some insight. The best new promising technology seems to be LiFePO. This technology has about 2.5 the energy density of the best Pb units on a weight basis. Safety is advertised as being far ahead of the LIpo style but lower power/energy density. The price will come down with mass production. Like anything else, once the item is a comodity, competition on the mfg side will drive prices.
    I'll get interested around $50/kWH.

    I have noticed a large rise in Pb batteries. Even my favorite batteries at Walm@rt are up.

    The problem with Nimh cells is the element Ni is rare (expensive). Not enough of it to go around for all our cars, boats, ups's toys...

    While energy storage weight is not a cocern for sailboats, for powerboats, weight must be kept at a minimum. It's hard, but not impossible, to get an electric powered rowboat on-plane with heavy lead batteries.

    http://www.edison-marine.com/



    Joe
     

  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Weight on Multihulls

    A previous posting might have been misleading. Weight is very much a concern on multihull craft, power or sail....long thin low-displacement hulls
     
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