Banque Populaire IX - Ultim 32m Trimaran foiler

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Dolfiman, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Banque Populaire: I just discovered that the boat uses a small flap on the daggerboard lifting foil. I had thought that the only way they could change the angle of incidence of the mainfoil was to rake the board. Interesting that the knobs shown above refer to adjusting the rake of the daggerboard and there does not appear to be a control for changing the flap angle? Am I missing something, Dolfiman?
     
  2. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    Dear Doug, I have no better news on that point, just remind that project Director Renaud Camus mentioned this small flap on the central daggerboard (in quote #6). One can presume that they also have let open the possibility to adjust the rake of the whole daggerboard for this first year of tests. How work the numerous knobs (8 starboard and 8 port) ? Are they acting directly on foils and how ? Or are just the repetition of the foil settings ?
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    On the previous page there is a knob on the upper right that says "SAF FL BD" --could that possibly refer to a flap(FL) on the board(BD)?
    They wouldn't have a flap if they couldn't adjust it? I'm sure that they can also adjust the daggerboard rake for the predictable "median" of flap settings for different conditions.
    Then there is always the possibility that the flap adjustment is manual/mechanical.
    We know from what Verdier said about Gitana that flap adjust under load is possible and that the whole mainfoil concept was designed as part of Gitana from the beginning but that may not be true of Banque Pop-they could have added the main foil after they found out what Gitana was doing so maybe the structural reinforcing is not as robust?
    I sure wish these guys would shed some light on this stuff and I'm extremely grateful for Guillaume's openness about Gitana . Cool stuff!
     
  4. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    Quite sure that "SAF FL BD" means "Foil of the port rudder", as SAF is probably a reduction of "Safran" (= rudder , exactly the immerged part of a rudder), Fl for Foil and Bd is "Babord" (= port). This knob is associated with "montée" et "descente", which means "up" and "down", whether the rudder is up when not in use (ie winward) and down when used (ie (leeward).
    When there are "+" and "-", that refers to more or less rakes, like for the "Rake Dérive" knob, "dérive" meaning daggerboard.
     
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  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Thanks!
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    From Seahorse/Scuttlebutt Europe:

    A very personal relationship
    [​IMG]
    Solo ocean racers trust their lives as well as their results to their autopilots, none more so than the skippers of the new generation of foiling Ultim - where the pilots themselves also face unprecedented new demands

    After Vendee Globe winners Team Banque Populaire elected to go with B&G for the pilot systems on their own first fully foiling Ultim we spoke to B&G’s R&D team about their rather enormous new brief...

    ‘Sailing upwind everything feels relaxed and calm, and you’re unaware that you’re doing 23kt,’ says Matt Eeles, B&G’s R&D lead on the Banque Populaire project, ‘but as you bear away onto a reach you really feel the power and acceleration. Your senses are heightened as the full power from the canted wing mast and the sails rapidly accelerates the boat from 20 to 40kt.

    ‘With the foils raked back and emitting a resonating scream there is no sign of the bows burying. Looking outside the helm position without goggles is nearly impossible as the apparent wind beats you in the face and your eyes hurt as you try to stare at the foils to see all three hulls flying in the air.

    ‘We frequently saw SOG go into the 40s, peaking at well over 40kt under pilot when fast reaching in 25kt TWS,’ he adds. ‘High averages will be crucial for this project and I can easily see them being able to achieve averages into the high 30s sailing downwind while maintaining a safe and stable platform. After reaching at over 40kt, downwind at 35kt was quite a pleasant ride!’

    Full article in the June issue of Seahorse: www.seahorsemagazine.com
     
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  8. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    Most interesting article on a crucial development : an autopilot able to cope with all sailing conditions of an Ultim and its accelerations, inc. full flying and transition phases, really challenging !

    F. Gabart also stimulate the research on that field, with two experts of his team, Benoit Piquemal and Émilien Lavigne (who is preparing a thesis on that). And FG adds another futuristic challenge : how can we able to measure the real wind ahead , that will hit the boat 10 s later :
    "And for Gabart himself, he feels there is still much more to improve. His first port of call is the autopilot, the vital, key component in single-handed racing.

    “At the moment, the autopilot is just following… it’s just measuring what happens and acting on it,” he says. “When a sailor is steering, he’s also anticipating what he sees in front of him or what he could imagine – because this is on his feelings; he can anticipate things.

    “Will an autopilot in the future be able to just look in front of the boat, to measure the wind ahead? Maybe in a few years we can measure the wind that will arrive. We could just look a mile in front and say, ‘Okay, in ten seconds, I will have this type of wind’.”

    And that’s enough time for a skilled skipper to make a judgement on how best to steer his craft. “We just need a few seconds,” asserts Gabart. “At least you know what the wind will be in ten seconds. It’s wonderful information.”
    Ref : Smart sailing: François Gabart's trimaran MACIF is a floating tech lab - iQ UK https://iq.intel.co.uk/smart-sailing-trimaran-macif-francois-gabart/
     
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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Banque Populaire moved: Pressure Drop - Maxi Ultime Banque Populaire Finishes 1st Round Of Rehab http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php?8565-Maxi-Ultime-Banque-Populaire-Finishes-1st-Round-Of-Rehab

    Excerpt-
    Gautier Levisse, member of the Banque Populaire Team's research department:

    "The two-and-a-half months at the Multiplast site have identified and then repaired the structural damage on the platform of the Maxi Banque Populaire IX (the three hulls, the two arms and the helm). The main impacted area was on the back third of from the boat, from the foot of the mast to the back arm. We have reconstituted the boat in the rules of the art. Another big issue was the rebuilding of the protective cap that had been destroyed by 90% during capsizing. It's a clean room on the boat. It was necessary to rebuild a mold manufacture the part and replace " .


     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Banque Pop--- you may remember the post* from Vincent Prevost where he said that Banque Populaire lost the lifting foil off the daggerboard the day before the capsize. The picture below was taken by Yvan Zedda just a few days ago and clearly shows that the mainfoil is back in position:
    * reproduced below from the Fire Arrow thread
    Banque Pop main foil 9-25-18.jpg
    ======================================
    I wrote to Vincent Prevost of VPLP about the Banque Pop capsize and he sent me a very detailed answer. One startling thing he said was that as far as he knew, Banque Pop lost their daggerboard mounted mainfoil the day before the capsize.
    Check it out below for more informative and interesting comments from the designer of only the second ULTIM tri to use the equivalent of the basic Fire Arrow Foil System.
    =================
    Here is a most gracious, detailed response from Vincent Prevost. (Thanks again for the suggestion, Dolfiman!).
    First, my question:
    Hi, I’m very interested in the foil systems being used by Banque Populaire and Gitana-particularly the mainfoil on the daggerboard. I saw a picture yesterday of BP upside down and noticed there was no foil on the daggerboard-I’m curious: was it removed due to damage or just to get it out of the way? Was it possible to use that foil to develop downforce and could it be used to prevent or slow down a capsize ? If the Ultim rules were changed could the flap be tied in to the autopilot in such a way that at the very beginning of a capsize the flap was moved max up to generate maximum downforce? Would there be any structural issues with this?

    Thank you for considering my questions-I greatly appreciate it!

    Take Care, Doug Lord


    =====================================================
    Vincent's response:
    ---
    Hello Doug
    thanks for your email relative to BP capsize
    As far as I know, they had lost the T of the board a day before.(bold emphasis dl)
    Considering the T board may push up or down for about 2.5 to 3 tons , the RM can be increased or decreased by 15 to 20% which is a lot in terms of overlaoding the platform and mast.
    In ocean racing world, we enter in a new era where , as for the Foiling Imoca 60, the righting moment of the boat is function of the dynamic forces generated by the foils
    It means that the skipper will have to sail taking into account these variations of RM caused by dynamics loads from the foils if he doesn't want to break the boat
    sensors , alarms have to be installed now to have the knowledge of the loads on the elements of structure impacted by RM variations
    So in theory ,for your last question, answer is yes to delay a capsize with 2 warnings:
    - increase the RM affects the designed structure of the boat , and ,
    - at the heel angle where the board is out the water, you brutally loose 20% of your righting moment
    So to be used being seriously informed and controlled (bold emphasis dl)

    hope that helps
    regards
    vincent
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Banque Pop great video:

     
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  12. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    About same video, but at real speed and with another mounting of the sequences :
     
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  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great article by VPLP(Banque Pop's designers) originally posted by Dolfiman: LIFT OFF…Designers VPLP on the ULTIME's Flying Time | Route du Rhum - Destination Guadeloupe https://www.routedurhum.com/en/news/230
    Excerpt:
    VPLP: On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more.
     
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