Arthur Robb’s Lion Class restoration. Attention to PAR

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by volodja71, Feb 4, 2015.

  1. volodja71
    Joined: Feb 2015
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    volodja71 New Member

    Hi forumies
    It was blessing or curse I got to possession one of 35’ Arthur Robb’s masterpieces built in 1955 by Moody in England. It was sold as a solid boat but... Long story short, I am in legal dispute with the vendor hopping to get some money back. Also I am very keen to restore her so I hope to get advice and critics which I would really appreciate on my following plan:

    1. Deck. Original 1” thick screwed and caulked teak deck is leaking badly. I plan to remove the teak, lay the 12mm plywood with 2 layers e-glass on epoxy over. Than glue the old teak deck back. I plan to
    a. cut the screws to safe the time,
    b. cut off the parts of planks with screw remains,
    c. the rest of planks cut along to get 1 cm thickness
    d. glue them back, filling the space which was cut off with planks across.

    2. Bilges. Almost all structural frames with steel strips are deeply rotten. Those frames without steel strips are solid. Mahogany planks look good. Steel floors and frame strips show a bit of rust but not that bad. My plan:
    a. My boat builder strongly advice to get rid of all the steel in the bilges and make new wooden floors for every station. I am a bit reluctant to do so as it is not to the original design and adding time/cost. Happy to hear the opinions.
    b. I think to laminate the replaces of rotten pieces of frames directly on inside surface of planks without removing any of them. The laminate supposed to be 5mm kauri strips (any other suggestion?, definitely not oak) stapled to each other with 8mm monel or galvanized staples in places where least possible for plank screws. First layer is stapled but not glued. Then remove formed frames, attach to steel planks and floors or wooden floors. Bolt down with new keel bolts. Refasten the planks.

    Wish I could give up my job for a year.....
     
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I've owned two of these, the first generation like yours and a the 'glass version which was a pretty rare thing, as they didn't make many.

    Use a screw extractor on the deck fastenings, they'll come right out with little trouble. Save as much of the deck as you can, as it's costly to fix, match and fit. The 12 mm plywood with 2 layers of cloth, 6 - 8 ounce (200 - 270 gsm) will do. Plane the decking stock to 1/2" (13 mm) and refasten it down, bunging the heads.

    Yep, your boat builder buddy is right, toss the steel. Make wooden or bronze floors, with wooden being much cheaper of course.

    You can laminate new frames in place, but this is more work then you realize. It's usually better to cut out every third or forth frame and make a new one to fit, then it is to do on site laminated repairs. As you've replaced some, you can remove others, but the idea is to spread out these repairs, along the boat's length, so it'll hold her shape in the process. White or live oak would be a good choice, though in your country you have lots of nice hardwoods that will do just as well. Don't bother with galvanized fasteners. Monel is ideal, though plastic staples can be glued, sanded etc. without fear of corrosion or dulling a tool.

    Yes, refasten the planking after you've shored up the structure.
     
  3. volodja71
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    volodja71 New Member

    Thanks PAR
    I have never considered using a screw extractor for flat heads for now. Manual impact driver was my choice. It's nice to have options. Will follow what you said.

    I was always been afraid to make something wich is not fit. Beveling looks taking ages and never perfect.
    Can you please describe the dificulties of insuitu laminating in more details?
    Thank for infor about plastic staples. will use those. Would be a trable for a planking screw to go through one?
     
  4. volodja71
    Joined: Feb 2015
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    volodja71 New Member

    Thanks PAR
    I have never considered using a screw extractor for flat heads for now. Manual impact driver was my choice. It's nice to have options. Will follow what you said.

    I was always afraid to make something wich is not fit. Beveling looks taking ages and never perfect.
    Can you please describe the dificulties of insuitu laminating in more details?
    Thank for infor about plastic staples. will use those. Would be a trable for a planking screw to go through one?
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If it's a slot cut flathead I use a counter sink bit to make a center in the fastener first, then drill for the extractor. If it's Phillips drive, I'd simply drill for the extractor. Impacts tend to strip out slots or removed lots of surrounding wood. This is especially true of corroded fasteners.

    Laminating in place is easy enough. Rip pieces to the thickness that will comfortably bend into position. I usually make the pieces a bit over size initially and once glued together, I'll removed the frame and trim to dimension on a table saw. This means you'll fit them twice, once for the lamination process, then again after trimming and dressing. The bevels don't have to be very precise if using epoxy, because once under a little putty and paint, you'll never know how bad of a wood butcher made the repair.

    You can also do the repair next to the frame, rather then over it or in it. This will permit you to make all of the "blanks" for the frame repairs without having to remove or cut anything. Once you've got repairs made and ready to install, select frames separated by a few bays (every 3rd one will do), so you only weaken local areas. Once these are in, do the remaining ones the same way, bouncing around so you don't weaken anything. On your boat, 1/4" - 5/16" thick layers of stock will probably bend in easy enough. Some clever reinforcement will be necessary, which amounts to placing 1x2's or 2x4's to wedge the laminate strips into place, while the goo cures. I've used neighboring frames and wedges to to lever down the laminate strips. Simply a 2x4, clamped or screwed to neighboring frames, with wedges under it to press the new pieces into place as the epoxy goes off. A heat gun will usually convince a stubborn strip to bend into place. Bend all the pieces in dry and arrange for bracing, blocking, whatever to hold them. Then take this assembly apart and butter up for goo, so you can reassemble.
     
  6. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Laminating in place is fine. Just remember to mask off the bits you don't want glue to fall on and be a PITA to remove. Polythene sheet - bin bags, newspaper etc depending on adhesive and masking tape can be used to good effect. If you want an easy ride on removal, peel the protection off after the epoxy has half or more set. I've fitted thwarts and bedlogs, laminating in situ and trimming with a plane afterwards. As much machine work as possible is done while in the dry state to minimise the later fettling.

    Like PAR says, dry fit, check and check again prior to glueing. Worth practising the complete clamping procedure dry, to ensure everything goes where you want it too.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I use plastic packaging tape as a handy, on site "release" product. Goo doesn't stick to it, the tape doesn't cost much, it conforms well, etc.

    As Suki mentioned, tape off everything first, to keep goo off stuff you'd rather it not be on, then dry runs with the stock, any bracing, practice your cursing, etc. You can't do enough dry runs initially, as you nail down procedures and technique, but you sure can not have enough dry runs (sounds like I need a diuretic or something). Things like having a plastic bag taped around the cordless drill, so your goo covered paws don't make a mess of things, when you have to drive home a temporary screw or two. It's these seemingly odd little tasks that make the dry run prep worth the trouble.
     

  8. volodja71
    Joined: Feb 2015
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    volodja71 New Member

    Thanks PAR and SukiSolo
    You gave me plenty to think about and plan ahead. Surtanly I will have more questions when I start Also would appreciate any recommended literature on the subject.

    PAR, another question abut the frames. As you familiar with Robb's design iron floors doesn't go on every frame station. First floor positioned at start of bilges then about 10 stations with steel strips on every second station then where bilges dip down steel floors go on every second station - I saw 3, but it should be some under the engine. I am still waiting the delivery of the plans.
    If the wooden floors to be installed, should I install it on every second station as usual or should follow the design and put wooden floors where the steel floors where previously installed? Also should I use a hydraulic jack to push a bit the planks in place where the floors are removed? It looks that planks are holding the shape quite study as half of frames rotten and don't really hold anything.
    Also there is an opinion that galvanising the existing floors and strips would do the job as well and save me a lot time and money. What do you think about it?
    And another question. I found few spots of rot on planks and top of the keel (keelson?) around the frames. What is the best way to approach this?
     
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