around in pocket, I I think so

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by WindRaf, Oct 2, 2014.

  1. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I personally don't think a non stop voyage around the world in a blue water 10 is very practical for two reasons:

    1.) the boat would so heavy in comparison to its sail area (SA), the voyage would be more like a controlled drift than an actual voyage. Being at sea for such a long time in such a rough part of the oceans increases the odds of a devastating wave hit. Such could easily strip the boat of its rig, turning it into essentially an ark.

    2.) being of such limited capability, it would be forced to sail well south of the equator with the risk of even a successful voyage being discredited as a voyage around the world. I think Sven got a whiff of this possibility, which was probably one more reason for backing out of the Yrvin 10 project. IMHO, such was a very wise move.

    If I were to attempt a non stop voyage around the world, I would double the size of my proposed boat. It would displace 6.1 mt rather than 0.77 mt. It would also have double the waterline length, making its top end speed 1.4 times faster. I would go for the "smallest" (shortest) boat to do a non stop voyage around the planet.
     
  2. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    How soon before we can 3D print a Ten?
     
  3. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    You could name your boat Libby's. ;-)
     
  4. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    It has been done Eastward in a 21 foot mini. A bit pricey for my taste, but I think that is the record for shortest solo non-stop going Eastward. Not sure of the record for shortest sailboat solo non-stop going Westward. It would be a challenge in any boat. Glenn Wakefield of Victoria recently made a very good attempt in a 42 footer. I am not sure if anyone has done it successfully in anything shorter. Very few have done. I would like to see someone do it in a Folkboat or Contessa 26, or even something like a Contessa 32. Quite a challenge. It would be terrific to do it in a pocketship of your own design.
     
  5. Westel
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    Westel Senior Member

    You are correct Jamie that each person is different and there are probably people walking this earth who could find themselves "comfortable" in a confined space such as the cabin of a 10 footer for days on end.
    There might be people who have the skills to sail almost anything that can float and have sails on it.
    No doubt there are bright minds in naval architecture land that can design the near perfect 10 footer for ocean voyages.
    Some people are so damn good with their hands that no matter what material/tools are thrown at them, they can fix or make almost anyything.

    Doing a non-stop circumnavigation in a 10 footer is expecting all these skills to be found in ....one person as most of the people who attempting this 10 ft challenge are designing/building/sailing their own boats.......

    Hannes Lindemann could barely walk when he beached in St Martin and Spiess was "more than relieved" when he set foot on Brtish soil.......and they "only" crossed the Atlantic. Spiess spend 54 days at sea and Lindemann 72 days...a VERY far cry from 240 days.......

    The thing about people is that they allways can do things that seemed impossible........good or bad.....
     
  6. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Thanks Westel. I love the rig WindRaf.

    What are the prospects for fishing enroute?
    Would it slow you down more than it would benefit?

    I think it might be fun to take a stop only if necessary approach, stopping as little as possible but being prepared to stop as needed. Fish could still only take up a fraction of the diet, but it would be nice to set out with at least the possibility of going all the way, even if in all likelihood you would have to end up stopping several times for various reasons. The other nice thing about this approach is the uncertainty, that you don't have everything planned out in advance to every final detail. I see that as a real plus. Others might not. If you could accept the "possibility" of going 500 days on only 100 pounds of food plus fishing gear, water maker, and renewable energy for fuel, then you could at least design the boat much lighter and still have a shot at going all the way, which is all you really ever have anyway.

    So...
    100 pounds food.
    200 pound skipper.
    100 pounds equipment including watermaker and fishing gear, excluding rig and batteries.
    100 pounds batteries.
    -----------------------
    500 pounds

    200 pound hull including rudder
    100 pound spars, sails, rigging
    200 pounds keel and ballast
    -----------------------
    500 pounds

    This gets us down to L/D ratio of 446, still heavy but comparable to a Vertue 25 loaded for a voyage.
    It should be capable of carrying as much sail as a Ten heavier loaded, perhaps even more.

    What might it look like at 1000 pounds displacement? Deep, Beamy, or somewhere in between?
    How much could or should we limit freeboard? How low could we set the bulb keel?

    How about a scaled down Yngling, but relatively wider and deeper, and with the overhangs chopped off!

    Yngling:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling_(keelboat)
    LWL 4.7m = 15 feet
    Beam 1.7m = 5' 7"
    Draft 1.05m = 3' 5"
    Displacement 645kg + typlically 155-255kg crew and gear = 800kg-900kg
    Sail Area Main and Jib = 15.8 m2

    TEN:
    LWL 3.0m = 64%
    Beam 1.2m = 71%
    Draft 1.2m = 114% ( Hull Only = 454 / 0.55 / 3.0 / 1.2 / 0.7ish /1000 = 0.327m deep vee
    Displacement 1000 pounds = 454kg
    Perhaps a similar rig, but as a gunter rig to drop the gaff in strong winds and when sleeping.
    Maybe 1 foot of freeboard and 10m2 = 108 ft2 full sail main and jib.
    Keel would be aluminum plate plus lead bulb projecting 0.9 m from hull. Trapeze used on fair sailing days.

    Similar to Ant Stewart, but much shorter and slower.
     
  7. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    I liked his idea of power sailing through the doldrums, and bio-degradeable clothing. I want to see if I can cut the weight down and go as indefinitely far as possible by switching to solar and wind power. The laundry is challenging, and not trivial. I think I would try to do laundry enroute though, using solar, wind, and rain power. I think I would make all the fresh drinking water by hand, or perhaps by foot. By going down to 1000 pounds average displacement I think 1 knot of boatspeed could be obtained with 100 watts, and in sunny doldrums you might be able to power through it without dipping into battery reserves, except at night. So I think I would have 4x 50 watt panels and it would be a hybrid wind-solar-human boat. I would do some rowing for exercise also, but on average perhaps only 300-500 calories per day, which I think costs about 1 pound of extra food per week, plus the weight of the oars, but would add a healthy and fun element to the voyage. I think using human and solar power you could solar power through the doldrums by day and row through the doldrums by night, plus a little of both at dusk and dawn.

    For a design I am leaning away from a scaled down Yngling to a scaled down Pilot Cutter, which is really not all that different than a traditional rowing sailing boat. I might still add a lead blob on a stick, but it would have only enough lateral area to be a streamlined strut. The keel and rudder would provide most of the lateral resistance, and tracking. The rudder might be retractable in the doldrums to reduce drag. In order to be beachable, the keel and blob might also be removeable, and might double as an anchor, not for storms but for sandy beaches. Well, maybe in storms also in combination with a proper anchor. Rig would be fully removeable also. Probably a gunter rig so it could come down and go up in stages. For downwind, probably two jibs wing on wing when sleeping, and main and spinnaker when I am awake in fair sailing days and want to have some fun. I don't expect to plane, but an extra knot would be enough to keep the fun purposeful. It would be nice to aim for an average speed of 3 knots even if I had to settle for 2 knots.

    Still not sure about where the good fishing spots are around the world, and what to expect each day, and when it might even be worth stopping for a few days to fish enough to resupply, and how much oil is in the fish. In terms of diet, dried fish, salt fist, boiled fish, and then bring spiced and vitamins and vegetable rich fruits and vegetables to make up the difference, and tea. Heating the water, even to boiling, would also be provided by a combination of solar, wind, and human power. Will look into a small wind turbine for windy days. Not sure how it might interfere when sailing, but should be deployable when sleeping with minor sail up, but removeable for storms and sailing upwind.

    I think I will start my own thread now, and begin some work on a scale model.
     
  8. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Thinking about the Around-In-ten "rules", I realized That Hull Length is restricted, but Draft and Beam are not (as someone recently wryly pointed out, with the sailing pillar).

    So I thought up an ark like Ten, which would be good enough to be a real sailboat, but not all that good otherwise. (see attachment)

    What I have here is an 8 ft wide, 4 ft deep Ten, drawn as a facet boat.

    Comical as I'm sure it looks, I'm pretty sure it would work.

    Being a high sided double ender, with its Water Line equal to its length, it should be somewhat difficult to flip, either sideways or end wise.

    The Long keel acts as not only ballast but a means of keeping it sailing straight, despite its global lines.

    Its great Hull depth helps insure ultimate stability.

    The rig (not shown) would be similar to a Chinese Lug, but with shrouds.

    It would have a jib which would really be a flat cut asymmetrical spinnaker. It's job would be to keep the bow pointed mostly down wind.

    It would have to be lowered and raised again with each down wind tack.

    This boat would have an 8 ft bowsprit, which would extend 5 ft past the bow, and a 5 ft boomkin, which would extend 3 ft past the stern. Each would be "V" shaped, in top view, and would be able to hinge upward when in port. Each would have rungs like a ladder, and would be held down with locking pins and a single stay, with a lanyard.

    The mast would be about 23 ft long and extend 18 ft above the deck.

    Top speed would probably be around 3 kts down wind and maybe 1.75 kts upwind. Such might improve as stores are consumed and the boat reaches a more Svelte like 3,000 lbs :)

    I think it's an interesting intellectual exercise to guess the upward limit of D/L for a workable sailboat. This has to be pretty close to it.
     

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  9. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    yes, regulation ten is the maximum length of the hull and the waterline, plus removable rudder and bowsprit
    there is no limit to the beam and to the sail area
    but obviously you have to draw a boat that can sail well
     
  10. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    steel ten full sails.jpg



    Design length : 3.048 m

    Design beam : 2.000 m

    Design draft : 1.000 m

    Displacement : 0,750 - 1.503 - 1,750 tonnes


    sail area 6 - 12 mq
     
  11. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Mostly true but not entirely.

    What you need is a boat that will sail adequately.

    For a controlled drift like voyage around Antarctica, ability to carry a vast amount of supplies, internal volume, and ability to weather storms, trumps sailing ability to some degree.

    It should be remembered that almost all of the world was explored by what today would be considered very poor sail boats. These boats (ships) could barely make windward progress, but they mostly rode the winds and currents to get where they had to go.

    Such would be the case with DECAS MAXIMUS. She would be mostly a ballasted buoy with sails. After half of her stores were consumed, she would improve somewhat, but maybe not enough.

    So I thought of trimming her down a bit. (see attachments)

    The first thing I did was trim her Beam from 8 ft (2.44 m) to 7 ft (2.13 m) then re-named her DECAS PLUS PLUS.

    Then I trimmed her draft by 3.0 inches (7.62 cm) by raising her chine.
    This cut her displacement down to less than 3,000 lbs (1364 kg).

    Due to her lower displacement, I was able to cut her SA down to 130 sf, (12.1 sm) but I left her keel the same size. This would make her a bit more of a sailboat and a bit less of a buoy with sails.

    Keeping the same profile, I reduced the Beam again, this time to 6 ft. (1.83 m) I re-named her DECAS PLUS. Her new displacement would be around 2,500 lbs (1136 kg) and her new SA would be 117 sf (10.9 sm).

    Now she looks a lot more like a boat, but displaces less than half of her biggest sister. But she could probably not do a non stop voyage around Antarctica.
     

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  12. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

  13. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Too fat in length to width ratio and so with it's in ratio small lateral keel surface area not directional stable. To make it worse the mid section of the keel is inclined outwards from below to above and so when sailing at an angle this reduces the keel's ability to provide effective leeway resistance, this reduction is beyond what you whould have with a in front view vertical keel. And it has a bulb that makes the build complicated but, with the to be expected low speed of the boat, doesn't add anything as a very little extra bow buoyancy which will hardly compensate for the extra weight of the bulb. And there is a nice looking but hard to operate rig that will prove to be ineffective on this kind of boat. End conclusion: a silly design of a layman in knowledge about the subject.
     
  14. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    the question was to sharpii2
     

  15. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Then don't ask questions in general.
     
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