Anyone know what happened to the foilers in the Texel?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by CT249, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    I just noticed that in the world's biggest cat race, line honours went to a Formula 18, followed by a Tornado and then the first foilers.

    Conditions were very light, but I thought the foilers were supposed to be "the future?" Does this mean that "the future" is that we will go slower in light winds?
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Tears for the Past.....

    You know you're really something--desperate I'd say-- to try to find anything, anywhere that will back up your outlook on foiling.
    It's just going to get worse for you because the newest foilers foil in light air!!! As a matter of fact, I'd bet that I know of a foiling monohull keelboat that might have had a chance against these boats in the conditions they had to face-mainly because it foils in lighter air than either of the two foiling cats.

    Yeah , it was light air and then some: https://roundtexel.com/tijd-om-genieten-tijdens-39ste-ronde-om-texel/
    And the two foilers finished within one minute of the fastest seahuggers on elapsed time-pretty good for dead flat calm or close thereto!

    Only 10 of 300 finished the whole race according to catsailingnews: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2016/06/round-texel-2016.html
    And two of the 10 were foilers!

    click--
     

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  3. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Yes, we know it was light - that was noted in the OP. We also know that it was at times breezy enough to get hulls flying, so it wasn't always dead light.

    I'm merely trying to the other side of the biased news that is so often presented. When foilers etc do well, some people ensure that it's made known far and wide. When foilers etc don't do well, they keep quiet. If it's OK for some people to generate publicity when foilers win, why is it not OK to generate publicity when "seahuggers" win? Do you demand bias in the news and comments?

    After all, the people who make the stupid claim that "the future is foiling" are stating that seahuggers are not part of the future - that wonderful classes like the Hobie 16, classic yachts, Finn, Laser, Int 12, F18 etc will die. If people are going to be so negative about non-foilers then they have no right to complain if people are negative about foilers. It is interesting to look at the fleet numbers in the foiling cats. There seem to be only a couple dozen of the foiling sloop cats racing. If they represent the future then there is no viable future.

    Of course, the one-eyed fanatics could stop insulting other classes with their stupid slogans that say that non-foilers have no future. They could respect other classes. What a pity that many of them seem unable to do so.

    This isn't about foilers, which are fantastic. They are clearly faster than seahuggers, across the wind range. It's about the fact that if some people are going to be negative towards existing craft (as 'funboard' promoters were, as skiff promoters were, as many foiler promoters are) then it is hypocritical of them to complain if others are negative about the 'new' types and try to present the other side of the story.
     
  4. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    I thought it was common knowledge foilers are (generally) slow in light air, and fast in heavy air. I guess not, so...

    Foilers are slower in light air and faster in heavy air than floaters.

    It's a lot like how multihulls can't perform to their rating in light air against keelboats, but once the wind comes, they're gone.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Light Air Foiling

    ===============
    As a general statement that was true in the past but is no longer always true. Read the last page or two of the Quant 23 thread. Also note that the Whisper catamaran claims to foil in 4 knots of wind. Many new foilers are under development with the target of light air foiling so that their customers who want to fly can do so throughout the wind range rather than in just part of the windrange- which has been the case for years-and is still true of some foilers. Light air foiling, for a company, is a business decision because spending money for something that will do what you want only part of the time just ain't cool.
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foiling

    ==================
    You know I've read and studied a lot about foiling and foilers and have yet to see any comments such as these. Who, specifically, are the people who claim "the future is foiling"? Foiling certainly will be part of the future but even I don't claim "the future is foiling"--though ,I guess, it might well be -at least to some extent.
     
  7. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    rcesneg;

    Sure. The issue is that the one-eyed promoters of foilers don't seem to want to admit that foilers may be slower in light winds, or address it.

    In many places it's often about as light as it looks to have been at Texel. It's very common to have a race that is sailed at 36% of the record speed, which is what happened this year at Texel. It's very common to sail in light and fluky winds when you are sailing inland or on harbours or in light wind areas.
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    To mention just a few;

    Flying Phantom claims that "foiling cats are the future of our sport". In other words, the people who sail on small lakes, the people who like monos, the Moth sailors, the people who like Shearwaters or H16s etc have no future, according to FP. And apparently if you don't have the money to buy an expensive new boat, the FP people don't reckon you have a place in sailing in the future. You reckon that's not negative?

    There is also the banner saying "Red Bull foiling generation: the future of sailing for young sailors." So if you're a kid who comes from a family who can only afford a Radial, RSX or Hobie 16, apparently you can may as well just give up now.

    Red Bull, Hagara and Steinacher promote foiling cats as "the future of sailing". So apparently all the kids who want to windsurf, and all those who like Fevas or their J/24 or Moth can just go home and stop cluttering the beaches. Anyone in New Zealand who likes a Paper Tiger or R Class should apparently just go and burn it, because Phantom and Red Bull reckon only they are the future.

    It's been said about kiting, which is the area of sailing where foiling most interests me. Kites are already pretty restricted in terms of sailing areas and conditions, and they allow the full exploitation of the excellent speed potential of foils.


    PS - In any event when a shorter, cheaper, heavier, older boat wins (which is what happened at Texel) it is common to mention what they beat, to put their feat in context. Look, for example, at what you posted when smaller CBTF boats and canters beat bigger boats. As one example, when the Q28 won you posted;

    "The boat won this regatta: Saisonfinale, Samstag 25, September 2011 beating a Libera and ,apparently, winning overall for the year. Congratulations!"

    Why was it OK for you to mention the bigger boats beaten by canters and foilers, but not OK for me to mention the bigger boats when a seahugger won?
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Here is a photo of me sailing a 10sqm canoe, taken yesterday, a few minutes after I launched it, the first time I had ever sailed one.

    The IC10 is acknowledged as the fastest singlehanded dinghy. It is also the oldest racing dinghy class. Yet I bet there are less than 1000 worldwide.

    So it is obvious that not everyone wants the fastest boat. In fact the vast majority of sailors don't! They want boats that are simple, reliable, easy to sail and that can be used anywhere. That's why boats like the Laser and Hobie 16 are so popular. They can be launched from a lee shore and shallow gravel beach (as I did for this canoe), sail through surf, race in 30+ knots and also in calms on a small lake.

    You need to ask the foiling promoters "Do you sail one yourself?" and then "if not why not?" And the answer cannot be, "its too expensive" or "I'm not a good enough sailor" or "It's too much bother" or "I'm too old" etc. For none of those replies makes sense if foilers are truly "the future of sailing"

    Foilers have been proven to work for about 10 years, how many have been built since then - 500? 1000? 1500?

    Richard Woods
     

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  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================
    Foilers have been proven to work for a lot longer than that but the problem is most older foilers were designed for max speed and needed 8-15 knots of wind to foil.
    Several new foilers are emerging with an entirely different design philosophy: easy to fly and capable of flying in the lightest air. Boats that any average sailor can learn to fly in 10 minutes, not three weeks. These boats will change the misconception of all foilers as hard to sail requiring great athleticism to an acceptance of foiling as a fun way to sail.
    When you have a 23' foiling keelboat that foils in a 5mph breeze, foils upwind in 8 knots of wind and does 20 knots in an 8 knot breeze , you know that design is changing for the better.
    I have a lot of time on a Rave as well as some time on a design I built. I have thousands of hours of flying RC foilers including having designed and built the worlds first production RC foiler, the F3 in 1999-2000. That boat was capable of flying in a 5mph breeze and did 18mph in a 22mph breeze.
    In a 5mph breeze she did 12 mph and foiled upwind. She would tack and gybe on foils.
    The foiling revolution is just getting started with boats directed at marketing the FUN of foiling with high end speed secondary.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    The first time I saw foilers sailing was in 1977 at Weymouth speed week. I "raced" against them in the 1983 speed week in my 25ft Gwahir catamaran. Probably the only time anyone at speed week has lived on board. We did 16.6 knots, I think the foilers did about 17. I remember Mayfly struggling to pass us despite being on foils

    But as you say those boats were high wind only, straight line boats. When I said "proven foiler" I meant boats that could sail round a course like any other

    More than one foiling sailor has suffered injury after falling off a crashing foiler. And nervous non sailors might ask why they all seem to wear crash helmets?

    RW
     
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  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ====================
    What an absurd comment! Back at ya: more than one sailor has suffered injury after falling off a capsizing dinghy, catamaran, trimaran or keelboat!
    Monitor in the 50's could tack and gybe on foils even if she needed a tow to get started! Things change-the new foilers designed for the FUN of foiling will change all the false impressions generated over the years like nothing so far has.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======================
    Gee, I didn't realize so many competent and well known sailors thought foiling was the future. Could they be right?!
    --
    That doesn't even make sense: the two foilers in the Texel were 9th and 10th of only 10 boats out of 300 that finished the whole race. They were about 2' larger than the non-foiler that won and finished within one minute of the elapsed time of the winner!
    For the foilers to have finished in the top ten of three hundred boats in mostly non-foiling conditions is quite an accomplishment.
     
  14. David Cooper
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    David Cooper Senior Member

    When someone says "foiling is the future", they don't intend anyone to take from that the idea that everything else can be thrown into the dustbin of history, but are merely discussing the high speed end of things. If they were to word things more carefully every time it would result in bloated expressions which aren't nearly so catchy, such as "foilers are gradually going to become more common as the designs improve and prices fall". No one involved in developing foilers wants to take anything away from the other classes, but rather to add something new.

    What we really need to do is work to help the older, slower classes remain cool, and the Olympics could help a lot with that if they changed their classes more frequently. They could reintroduce older classes back in for a single Olympics at a time, and bring in older classes which have never been part of the Olympics before. I'd certainly like to see the Tornado come back in every now and then, but it would also be good to see Fireballs and Wayfarers get a turn every now and then. There could also be a rotation through a series of smaller boats like the Mirror to give children the chance to win Olympic medals, and that would instantly give the sport a much greater appeal - typically you'd see one adult and child per boat, but each would be required to helm half the races to ensure that both are actually skilled enough to deserve to win a medal. This would boost the status of ordinary club classes and help to ensure their survival, rewarding people for maintaining fleets of older designs. The Olympics is currently part of the problem because it kills classes when it ditches them.
     

  15. jonas a
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    jonas a Junior Member

    "The Olympics is currently part of the problem because it kills classes when it ditches them."

    ...then again, if a class is kept alive only because it's Olympic, that is not good either
     
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