Americas Cup: whats next?

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You could not be more wrong!!! From "The Art and Science of Sails" by Tom Whidden:

" In 1851 the yacht America raced around the Isle of Wight in England against a fleet of crack English cutters and schooners. America easily beat the others and won the Hundred Guineas Cup, which came to be known in her honor as the America's Cup. Britannia, which thought of itself as "ruling the waves" was shaken by the victory of this upstart schooner from the new world. The English public saw it as a disquieting-indeed threatening-change
in the world order.
Knowledgeable observers, however, saw the outcome in less consequential terms. They were impressed by the radical design of the schooner America,but they were even more impressed by the cut of her sails, made of American cotton rather than flax. The "Special Correspondent" of the London Times wrote: "America's canvas was as flat as a sheet of paper. While the cutters were thrashing thru the water, sending spray over their bows, and the schooners were wet up to the foot of the foremast, the America was as dry as a bone.
Not only was America dryer due to her flatter sails, but for the same reason she was more close winded. The yachts of the day could only sail at about 55 to 60 degrees to the wind. It was said America could sail about 6 degrees closer. This windward ability produced a lasting impression on the nautical community....."
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From the very first America's Cup the outcome hinged on the technological supremacy of the winner! From that first race the Cup was representative of the pinnacle of sailboat design, construction and materials.

 

Paul, you're slinging the crap at Doug for repetition (and I'm just as guilty too) but you belong in the same boat, because if we all go round and round in circles, as it appears here, we just claim a little louder each time our adamant fixations; CT you're in there too. I note that there is a recent vote mono versus multihull for the next AC on Sailing Anarchy ..... and those fixated for match racing with lead around your feet are well in the minority - so your arguments re popularity are more than suspect CT, they're wrong. This change has occurred because people have seen what a spectacle unrestricted (relatively speaking) multihulls can do. Sorry chaps, you're just going to have to live with this damning statement.

 

Multi v. Mono hulls is not the issue, as far as I see it. Let the engineers and designers have at it in terms of technology, design the best boat they can within a set of paramaters....not one design, but rather a rule of design. Then let the skill of the sailors take the lead in determining the winner. If its technology only, then only best fund raiser wins, or he who has the most toys...

 

I wouldn't repeat myself if you would have the courtesy of addressing the points raised. Instead of addressing the points you say I'm talking rubbish, then when given the points again you mention some vote on some other internet board, probably by people who don't sail match races themselves and who may not understand the ramifications of boat performance in regard to match racing.

Of course anyone taking your position has to disregard the realities of Match Racing.

The people who do Match Race are in a majority in favor of the type of boats you don't like, not because they like going slow vs going "fast", but because decent match racing requires the port tack boat upwind and trailing boat downwind some recourse. The "faster" the boats are, the less the recourse for these boats.

You seem to think people who like match racing don't like going fast, so that is the reason for their choice. I worked my way though uni selling beach cats, sailing 200+ days a year on them for 3+ years, and have sailed them on and off since. I've sailed offshore on a 36 foot cat, helped build a Crowther 52 (until it exploded pre-launch), and have always been a huge fan of the C Class Cats.

On the other hand I've done a bit of Match Racing at a fairly high level and know the requirements for good competition. Outright speed is not required, and rapid acceleration can be a detriment to good pre-start tussels.

 

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What is abundantly clear is that you have never match raced multihulls-certainly at the level Randy Renyolds has. So, whom should we regard as an authority on match racing multihulls? Huh?

Perhaps this will help:

From SA-Randy Reynolds on match racing:

Noticed the emails about match racing in multihulls. We were (and still are) match racing multihulls here in Long Beach on a regular basis. Last year, hired by Pete Melvin of MM Design, Reynolds Design was contracted (two identical R33's Turbo's with crew) to race against and race with, the match racing champs that Pete put together to help the BMW Oracle Team...the racing was very close and exciting.

The starts were so exciting we had bow-sprites going over the heads of the afterguard of the other boat and very fast tacking and jibing at high speeds that broke rudders on the first day. We learned that match racing multihulls requires overly strong rudders because you would be doing 18 knots then slam the rudder over to avoid or get position on your opponent. We reinforced the rudders and solved the problem the next day but no doubt BMW Oracle learned much about the incredible loads that are generated in pre-start match racing maneuvers in large fast multihulls.

The weather legs were always close with the downwind legs even closer, with passing the lead boat not a hard task. After the first day we re-wrote the match racing books and created new ones for multihulls after we proved there is no safe position due to the acceleration of the R33's in 15 knots of wind. We raced over 20 races and all were very close with one boat usually only 10 seconds ahead of the other boat in a 20 minute windward / leeward course.

There is no doubt in my mind that match racing in multihulls could be very successful as long as the course was correct. In this years AC you had a 20 mile weather leg with boats only being 27 seconds apart. If they could have agreed to a best 5 out of 9 series on a 2-3 mile course like the 32nd AC, the racing would have been very exciting with lead changes, close contacts and overall a more exciting venue. Add to the element more wind like you have in SF (14 knots to 25 knots) then you will really have some action Fast Sailing!
Randy Reynolds

 

The R33 experiment consisted of what, two days on the water? So two days of this makes one an "authority"?

I wonder why the team didn't spend more time doing that. Do you?

During that time Randy says they had to "re-write the match racing book".

Why was that? Maybe because you couldn't do things like dial up, hook, trail, leebow, or blanket the competition from behind on the runs?


I saw the AC. One boat in irons for more than a minute after the start. An instance where a leading boat was unable to lee bow and lead into the mark on the layline. Downwind apparent wind angles similar to what most of us sail upwind. None of these things are conducive to good match racing.

 

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Read again-well over two years! Randy Reynolds: "We were (and still are) match racing multihulls here in Long Beach on a regular basis".
That "in-irons" episode you're hanging your cred on was due to a mechanical malfunction.( the pre- start: “We did a pretty nice job we were able to get the penalty and really had them on the ropes. But we got locked in to windward and tried to tack out but had a bit of a fumble and got stuck in the breeze. It didn't turn out the way I wanted it to! ) It was in no way-not even remotely- an intrinsic quality of match racing multies!! Read what Randy says.....

 

Uh, no. They are not "still" match racing any multis here in Long Beach. There has not ever been any organized match racing of multis here. The AC guys tried a couple of days, and then quit wasting their time.

You are the most gullible person on the planet.

 

Ummm, Gary, the people who hang around vote in SA are not exactly a valid sample of people who actually sail. A classic example is another recent SA poll, which asked dinghy sailors what type of boat they sailed.

The answers went like this;

Single Handed Hiking - 23.08%
Single Handed Trap /Foiler - 21.68%
Two Handed Hiking - 15.38%
Two Handed Single Trap - 20.28%
Two Handed Twin Trap/or multiple Trap - 19.58%

But of course, those figures just show how completely unrepresentative the SA readers are. For comparison, here's the breakdown Jim C did of the national title fleets in the UK;

Single Handed Hiking - 40%
Single Handed Trapeze - 5%
Two Handed Single Trapeze -12%
Two Handed Twin Trapeze - 4%
Two Handed Hiking - 40%

So there's a variation of about 400 to 500% between what those who answered the SA survey sail, and what the average national-level sailor sails.

In the USA and Australia, the proportion of people in (for example) the singlehanded trapeze boat or foiler category is even lower - over here (according to a quick squiz at my spreadsheet) there were only about 50 such sailors out of 2000 or so sailors who did dinghy nationals - that's around 2%

So we have pretty clear evidence that SA surveys can be out by a factor of at least four or five, and up to 11 to 1. Therefore, they seem to be pretty shaky ground on which to base anything much. Nor do I see a big connection between the SA vote and what the AC should be - are you saying that we have to follow the popular vote all the time? Does that mean you reckon Justin Bieber is a better musician than Beethoven or the Beatles because he's currently selling more CDs?

Anyway, thanks for the earlier comments. I can understand, although I do not support, you wish for the AC to be in the fastest boats. I've also done some impromptu match racing in fast cats and in my limited experience, it's VERY different from the conventional match racing that has been seen in the AC for over a century.

I'm outa here and hopefully will stay away.

 

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Sure I am, "B" -and you're saying Reynolds is lying as well. With your track record should anybody, anywhere believe your comments are based in reality?

 

My track record? When have I ever been wrong in anything I've posted?

Please feel free to post the link to the events and the results of all these multihull match races that have been going on in Long Beach. That should shut me up!

 

Well, let's see.... A couple of years ago, now, you went to great lengths to diss Jim Antrim regarding the design of the Antrim 27, suggesting more than strongly that Jim had, in fact, swiped the design of the Antrim 27 from a project on which he was working just prior to Gary Mull's death.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/foiling-18-a-13513-6.html

Over the past week, Jim and I have been emailing back and forth and this very topic came up in one of our discussions. Here's Jim's take on the particulars surrounding the Mull/Antrim design and the Antrim 27.

Jim Antrim:

"There is no part of the Antrim 27 that was designed by Gary Mull, and it is unsettling to learn that someone is out there spreading that BS and suggesting that I would take credit for someone else's work.

That (Mull/Antrim 27) was a completely different project, completed 2 years before I started the design of the Antrim/Ultimate 27. The only similarity is they are both light 27 foot boats with similar looking sail plans, and the sail plan is similar looking because the Mull 27 sailplan was entirely my design."

So, you asked for it and there it is... a non-factual based posting on these pages. By the way, Jim would very much like to talk with you on the topic. His email is available on his site, as is his phone number. In the interest of accuracy, perhaps you can see your way clear to giving him a ring where the whole story of the particulars on these boats can be spelled out by the guy who did the drawings. I'm quite sure that Jim would be open to your communication.

 

Where can I find info on the Reynolds 33 match racing?

 

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Probably by contacting Randy Reynolds here: http://www.r33.com/

 

I don't recall ever saying anyone "swiped" anything. When the Ultimate 27 was introduced there was at least one article that stated the boat was completed by Antrim after Mull's death, with full approval of his estate. When I took a demo sail on one the same thing was discussed.

This dovetailed with the fact that I had been given a drawing by Mull that looked to be the same design. Maybe the fact that Antrim drew both made things apprear to be the same.

So if I repeated something that was printed and and discussed by the dealer but was incorrect I have no problem going back to the thread and correcting the error.


If I recall correctly on the same thread someone else was claiming the Ultimate 20 hull was an Antrim design. I wonder if you asked Jim about that as well. If it was a Doug Hemphill design will you be going back and setting the record straight on that as well?


If that's it, after years of posting on this board, then I think my record is better than the vast majority. It is certainly better than the person who called my "track record" into question, someone who posted that he believed the AC was only recently a match racing event!