Americas Cup: whats next?

[Doug Lord]

AC- 70' Skiff?

(informed??)Speculation from SA:

"As for the rumors about that new Cup class, it appears that Stan Honey got pretty close to the most prominent talk in his Clean interview the other day - the latest talk is of ultra-light 70-foot monohull skiffs for the next Cup and insiders tell us this is the front-running idea at the moment. BMW won't confirm any of this of course, and whether these AC Skiffs would get their power from extreme versions of existing canting technology, massive wings with trapezes, sliding on-deck ballast or something else, we just don't know. We do know that Ellison is committed to boats that can get close to shore, and that the concept includes BMW/Oracle building at least four one-design versions of the AC Skiffs and transporting them around the world for a pile of LVT events for at least a year before any racing or testing would start with challenger-designed and built boats.

While our personal preference still runs towards multihulls, it's hard to argue with giant versions of an 18-foot skiff tearing through big wind venues at breakneck speed. The International America's Cup Skiff Class? We'll take it."

 

[Doug Lord]

Rome

Hardly anything was announced except: (from Scuttlebutt) "The boats to be used are a matter of discussion between the defender and various potential challengers, though design work is being done on both a monohull and a multihull by Bruce Nelson and Peter Melvin due to be released by September 30. "
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Why Bruce Nelson-why not Julian Bethwaite?? Or Vlad Murnikov? Has Nelson ever designed a no holds barred monohull like this:

 

[Gary Baigent]

Because those two designs portrayed are still fantasies flying (slowly) over the undiscovered Planets Ogg and Magog - and maybe because Bruce Nelson has designed some fast Transpac designs, who knows, but more importantly, one is reality and the others are dreams. Anyway, as has been questioned, "What boat types are going to be racing AC in 50 years time?" ... and it certainly isn't going to be ballasted porcines ..... so perhaps we should start now with those damned catermeringues and trimeringues!

 

[Doug Lord]

Because those two designs portrayed are still fantasies flying (slowly) over the undiscovered Planets Ogg and Magog - and maybe because Bruce Nelson has designed some fast Transpac designs, who knows, but more importantly, one is reality and the others are dreams. Anyway, as has been questioned, "What boat types are going to be racing AC in 50 years time?" ... and it certainly isn't going to be ballasted porcines ..... so perhaps we should start now with those damned catermeringues and trimeringues!

==============
Really?! Isn't Mr. Nelsons contribution still a fantasy? Huh? Still haven't caught up to the modern world where monohulls are faster than multihulls, have you? Well, at least from about 11' to 19'......

 

[Paul B]

Why Bruce Nelson-why not Julian Bethwaite?? Or Vlad Murnikov? Has Nelson ever designed a no holds barred monohull like this:

Have Julian or Vlad ever had a boat like that built and proven to be fast? Ever done a full design for a boat like that? No and No.

Why not Nelson? He and his right hand Greg Stewart are smart guys. They participate in the work groups for all the current design rules (including the AC).

Nelson has been working on AC boats from the 12 meters, through the USA Cat, and into the IACC era. He is known by the players and it seems respected enough to be asked to pen a prelim design to a proposed rule.

N/M has done REAL winning boats in everything from IOR to MORC to IMS, winning things like the One Ton North Americans in both the 27.5 raters and the 30.55 raters, the MORC Internationals Overall, selection to the USA Admiral's Cup Team, Transpac, etc. They designed the fastest of the first generation TP52s, and it is still winning races.

They have done other "fast" non-rule boats like the Sierra 26, the GP33, and even back in 1980 Bruce penned a design for the first generation PYRA 40 rule.

Bruce is a degreed NA who can do the sums on a project like this. So why would the keepers of the cup go to someone who has no expereince or expertise in this arena? It isn't like this boat will be required to sail in the cup. It is a design excercise, based on the proposed rule the keepers want to explore.

 

[sorenfdk]

Please excuse Doug Lord. It is obvious that he doesn't know much about real-world yacht design (or designers for that matter!).
Also, it seems that he has forgotten that we're talking match-racing here. None of these flights of fantasy seems to be ideal choices...

 

[booster]

Ogg and Magog

Because those two designs portrayed are still fantasies flying (slowly) over the undiscovered Planets Ogg and Magog - and maybe because Bruce Nelson has designed some fast Transpac designs, who knows, but more importantly, one is reality and the others are dreams. Anyway, as has been questioned, "What boat types are going to be racing AC in 50 years time?" ... and it certainly isn't going to be ballasted porcines ..... so perhaps we should start now with those damned catermeringues and trimeringues!

Ogg and Magog, well, don't forget Grendel and his mother in Beowulf. A nice crew for Doug in his super-challanger. If Doug adopts the latest technology from the automotive industry with air-bags, anti-sliding, shock-absorbers, anti-spin, active this and that, and checks the HIC (Head Injury Criteria) for every possible load-case he might still prevail. However, Grendel and his mother...
Regards,
Booster

 

[CT 249]

Because those two designs portrayed are still fantasies flying (slowly) over the undiscovered Planets Ogg and Magog - and maybe because Bruce Nelson has designed some fast Transpac designs, who knows, but more importantly, one is reality and the others are dreams. Anyway, as has been questioned, "What boat types are going to be racing AC in 50 years time?" ... and it certainly isn't going to be ballasted porcines ..... so perhaps we should start now with those damned catermeringues and trimeringues!

Actually, on the evidence it probably IS going to be monohulls in the AC in 50 years time. There's very little evidence that the sailboat-racing world is moving towards multis. Looking at fleet numbers around the world seems to underline that overall, they are not gaining significant strength.

Sure, in some places multi fleets are growing; Auckland, perhaps, is doing well. On the other hand, in places like Sydney Harbour you'll find hundreds of racing monos and not a single racing multi - a dramatic contrast to earlier times when there were several fleets of big and small multis.

I recently came across a 1960s Modern Boating (Oz) mag that mentioned that 30% of the racing boats in Victoria were cats - these days the proportion is a tiny fraction of that. Same in other areas - at some times, either the biggest or second-biggest fleet in Australia used to be found in a beach cat race on Botany Bay - nowadays that race attracts less than 5% of the entries it once had.

The same lines about how we'd all be sailing multis in a few decades time could have been (and IIRC, were) said by Rudy Choy or Arthur Piver, and were later said by Lock Crowther and others. They got it wrong. 50 to 20 years after they said it, multis are still a minority. That's not a good thing, but shouldn't the continuing appeal of monos to a vast number of highly intelligent, knowledgeable and open-minded people, be recognised???

This is NOT attacking multis, because exactly the same thing could be said about other forms of sailing, like windsurfing or the UK skiff types, which also seemed to be taking over but soon crashed in popularity. It's just pointing out that there is little if any evidence that multis will take over - just as you don't see recumbent bikes in the Tour de France, you don't see jet cars or turbos in F1 racing, you don't see people just doing freestyle in the Olympic pool, and you don't see people using their hands in the soccer World Cup. All those things would make those sports more 'efficient', and none of those things are done.

 

[Doug Lord]

Same old, same old

It is a design excercise, based on the proposed rule the keepers want to explore.

===============
A few years ago when Paul Cayard and Russell Coutts wanted the maximum monohull ocean racer possible-who did they go to? Bethwaite.
Pete Melvin is known for his out of the box thinking in multies-why not select a designer like Bethwaite for the monohull side instead of the same old same old? Like you said it is a design excercise and deserves someone who is known
for completely out of the box thinking.....

Morrelli and Melvins "commission"(from Sail-World) :

Morrelli & Melvin embraces the challenge of developing a rule that meets the following requirements:

· It should produce dynamic and close racing

· It should use advanced, efficient and cost-effective technologies

· It should be distinctive and epitomize the pinnacle of the sport

· It should be able to race in any venue in winds from 5-35 knots.

 

[DrCraze]

If only we could bank roll Fiji into winning the title. Then we could get some proas out there

 

[dskira]

(informed??)Speculation from SA:

"As for the rumors about that new Cup class, it appears that Stan Honey got pretty close to the most prominent talk in his Clean interview the other day - the latest talk is of ultra-light 70-foot monohull skiffs for the next Cup and insiders tell us this is the front-running idea at the moment. BMW won't confirm any of this of course, and whether these AC Skiffs would get their power from extreme versions of existing canting technology, massive wings with trapezes, sliding on-deck ballast or something else, we just don't know. We do know that Ellison is committed to boats that can get close to shore, and that the concept includes BMW/Oracle building at least four one-design versions of the AC Skiffs and transporting them around the world for a pile of LVT events for at least a year before any racing or testing would start with challenger-designed and built boats.

While our personal preference still runs towards multihulls, it's hard to argue with giant versions of an 18-foot skiff tearing through big wind venues at breakneck speed. The International America's Cup Skiff Class? We'll take it."

Why they bother with sails, it is not anymore the America's cup anyway.
So they can put a couple 20,000 hp gas turbine up their ***, it will be faster and cheaper.
Well even with that they will have the need to have their lawyer on speed dial.
Daniel

 

[Paul B]

===============
A few years ago when Paul Cayard and Russell Coutts wanted the maximum monohull ocean racer possible-who did they go to? Bethwaite.

Neiher Cayard nor Coutts has ever has an ocean racer designed by Bethwaite. As far as I know, the biggest boat Bethwaite has ever designed (or partnered in the design) is an 8m sportboat. The "radical" ideas in that excercise proved to be less than advertised.

In fact, the boat you keep posting pics of wasn't even drawn by Bethwaite.

Pete Melvin is known for his out of the box thinking in multies-

Pete is a pragmatic designer. Like Nelson, he is well known to the AC folks and has been involved in multiple Cup Campaigns.

If they wanted something out of the box in multis why didn't they go to the guys who built the SYZ foiling cat?

What you don't seem to realize is the defenders have proposed rules already in mind. The design offices working on the proposals are working within a pre-established framework.



The AC is a match racing regatta. Good match racing requires boats that have certain characteristics that might be different than boats designed for high top speeds. This is the same type of differece you see in other types of racing. Quarter horses aren't good for the Derby, F1 cars would not do well in the Baja 1000, etc.

I doubt you will get this, since you know so little of the AC that you previously posted on this thread that the idea of the AC as a match race was a "recent" thing.

 

[Doug Lord]

Neiher Cayard nor Coutts has ever has an ocean racer designed by Bethwaite. As far as I know, the biggest boat Bethwaite has ever designed (or partnered in the design) is an 8m sportboat. The "radical" ideas in that excercise proved to be less than advertised.

In fact, the boat you keep posting pics of wasn't even drawn by Bethwaite.

----------------------------
Another example of you not knowing what you're talking about:

Thanks again to Julian Bethwaite for the comments and information posted here:
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One of my inspirations -that has bolstered my own work on this project- is the Bethwaite/Billoch collaboration on the concept of Pterodactyl-which was conceived of to use on-deck movable ballast. Here is the original SA article: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...teradactyl.htm
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What wasn't known then was what Julian says about it here. I asked him to comment on the Trapwing which he did in a PM that I'm publishing here with his permission. He reveals who was behind the Pterodactyl project:

"A few years back these pages graced a thing called the Pterodactyl, it was a big double proa that Russel Coutts and Paul Cayard asked me to do as the ultimate circuit boat. Among other things its nice to see the OMR*go that route, but Russel was big on having 3 tonne of lead on tracks moving from side to side, inside the wing beams. I thought moving water through 200mm diameter pipes would be better, but the concept has merit. *Ocean Multihull Rule: it is the predominant rating rule used in Asia (and
Australia) it seems for handicap racing in this part of the world.(dl)

Pterodactyl:

 

[Paul B]

----------------------------
Another example of you not knowing what you're talking about:

Thanks again to Julian Bethwaite for the comments and information posted here:
-----------
One of my inspirations -that has bolstered my own work on this project- is the Bethwaite/Billoch collaboration on the concept of Pterodactyl-which was conceived of to use on-deck movable ballast. Here is the original SA article: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...teradactyl.htm
--------------
What wasn't known then was what Julian says about it here. I asked him to comment on the Trapwing which he did in a PM that I'm publishing here with his permission. He reveals who was behind the Pterodactyl project:

"A few years back these pages graced a thing called the Pterodactyl, it was a big double proa that Russel Coutts and Paul Cayard asked me to do as the ultimate circuit boat.

As everyone who reads this board knows, I know exactly what I am talking about. You, on the other hand, are the laughing stock of internet sailing sites.

The quote you just posted proves my statement, doesn't it? Niether Coutts nor Cayard have ever had an ocean racer designed by Bethwaite. Since Coutts is in charge of the current AC projects I guess he must have had a good reason to go with Nelson and not the guy he supposedly went to for his ocean racer.

Again, the boat you keep posting pictures of was not drawn by Bethwaite.

Also, it is not even a fully designed project, just a sketch from 6 or 7 years ago. You are the only person on the planet who seems to think it is real.

By the way, a proa is not a monohull.

 

[Doug Lord]

Rome

Great summary by Kimball Livingston: http://kimballlivingston.com/?p=2995