Americas Cup: whats next?

[Doug Lord]

ostlind

You don't know what you're talking about-read the other thread-a great deal of detail has been provided by more than one unimpeachable source. Believe it.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/usa-technical-details-helium-used-32082.html posts 5, 12 , 19, 69

 

[Paul B]

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my sources whose credentials are far better than anyone he quoted.
The boat used helium for measurement purposes-live with it.......

Wow. One of your "sources" is Craig (a friend of mine), who is not part of the USA team, who received info from someone who works at Sailing World, who is not part of the USA team.

You have no idea if the guy from SW ever saw the mechanism at all, or if he was told about it by some other person who heard it from someone else...

On the other hand, someone else has a supposed direct denial from someone on the team.

But of course in your mind third hand info from people not on the team is more reliable than second hand info supposedly from someone on the team.

If I thought Pete Melvin would be able to answer the question, and I'm sure he will not be open to that, I would ask him about this Friday night when I see him.

In the meantime I will wait for actual confirmation from someone on the team before I believe any of it.

 

[Doug Lord]

In the meantime I will wait for actual confirmation from someone on the team before I believe any of it.

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Off you go on another space trip! Just read the information: my #1 source was part of the Team and provided the most accurate detail.

 

[Paul B]

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Off you go on another space trip! Just read the information: my #1 source was part of the Team and provided the most accurate detail.

Actually, your first source quoted on this board was a magazine article, and it doesn't mention measurement at all.

I look forward to your "Team source" going public with the info. I'll settle for anyone on the Team going public with details.

If this proves to be a hoax it would not be the first time you claimed something on this bulletin board that was later shown to be incorrect.

 

[bistros]

Wow! that is simply amazing! If that actually worked ,which apparently it did, then it would help enormously with the boat flying a hull steadily thruout both races-vs the up and down of Alinghi.

UPDATE: this is fact and is one of the most exciting, incredible developments in design and construction of high speed sailboats that I have run into in my 50+ years of studying design and sailing. Monumental is not too strong a word!!

This is the hype I'm talking about, not fiddling with rules measurement. Lifting a hull a couple millimeters for a waterline length measurement has little to no relation to flying a hull steadily.

Exciting, amazing, incredible, monumental? Doesn't look like it. Weaseling through a rules check with no significant effect on sailing performance? Probably.

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Bill

 

[Doug Lord]

This is the hype I'm talking about, not fiddling with rules measurement. Lifting a hull a couple millimeters for a waterline length measurement has little to no relation to flying a hull steadily.

Exciting, amazing, incredible, monumental? Doesn't look like it. Weaseling through a rules check with no significant effect on sailing performance? Probably.

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Bill

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Regardless what the main purpose of the helium was it is a monumental achievement to make it work where its presence is required to prevent disqualification of an Americas Cup Challenger. That means it has to work-and not dissipate- over a long period of time-and do so repeatedly. The engineering required to pull this off is pretty astounding.
There is another thing: the original article mentioned that it made it easier to fly a hull. If you do the calculations you can see that RM would be reduced about 2%-substantial on a raceboat where every detail counts.
The security required to prevent the plan from being exposed was sure effective.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

There's that hyperbole driven term, Monumental, again. Perhaps you should take the time to study the source and usage of the term before tossing it about?

This hypothetical helium thing is not, in any way, shape, or form, Monumental. If there is something that is monumental in sailing, it would be the lowly beer can.

More pounds of beer cans are put to use each year by sailors than the total amount of helium in pounds ever produced globally. Do I know that for a fact...? Nope, but I have it from good sources and I believe them.

Behold the Monumental Beer Can, the most significant element in sailing in the last 50 years!!!!!

 

[Paul B]

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That means it has to work-and not dissipate- over a long period of time-and do so repeatedly.

Less than half a day is "a long period of time"?

The engineering required to pull this off is pretty astounding.

No, it isn't. It seems maybe you don't know what engineering is.

There is another thing: the original article mentioned that it made it easier to fly a hull. If you do the calculations you can see that RM would be reduced about 2%-substantial on a raceboat where every detail counts.

It has been mentioned that in the second race the boat needed more RM, not less.

 

[bistros]

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Regardless what the main purpose of the helium was it is a monumental achievement to make it work where its presence is required to prevent disqualification of an Americas Cup Challenger. That means it has to work-and not dissipate- over a long period of time-and do so repeatedly. The engineering required to pull this off is pretty astounding.

First of all, my statement is not "regardless" of the main purpose - it is directed at discussing the main purpose.

Making a gas-tight enclosure using modern composites, especially on a vacuum bagged surface isn't a monumental achievement - it better well be able to hold vacuum, or the shop building it isn't worth using. Not monumental, not astounding. Just meeting specifications for the application.

There is another thing: the original article mentioned that it made it easier to fly a hull. If you do the calculations you can see that RM would be reduced about 2%-substantial on a raceboat where every detail counts.

How did you arrive at 2%? This fractional improvement may be technically relevant, but in a boat that won easily by more than 2% each race it was not significant to the design execution.

The security required to prevent the plan from being exposed was sure effective.

The effectiveness of the cloak and dagger nonsense is not relevant to the discussion at all.

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Bill

 

[MalSmith]

UPDATE: this is fact and is one of the most exciting, incredible developments in design and construction of high speed sailboats that I have run into in my 50+ years of studying design and sailing. Monumental is not too strong a word!!

Hardly. Displacing air with helium saves about 1.1kg/m^3. Even if you could fill the entire main hull with helium, which you can't, you would be lucky to save 200kg on a boat weighing 24,000 kg. And at what cost?

 

[ancient kayaker]

Given that Helium is a limited natural resource that cannot be created with any technology likely to emerge in the foreseeable future and the saving if any was likely to be a second or two at best and Helium has vital life-saving applications in diving and... ah what the heck.

 

[Doug Lord]

Hardly. Displacing air with helium saves about 1.1kg/m^3. Even if you could fill the entire main hull with helium, which you can't, you would be lucky to save 200kg on a boat weighing 24,000 kg. And at what cost?

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The rationale I've been given is that the helium raised the boat 3-4mm which was required for measurement. My figures show that if helium was used in all three hulls, as one source says, then the lift would be closer to 500lb.
However, using helium to make the difference between measuring in and not measuring in in an America's Cup Challenger is significant any way you look at it.

 

[bistros]

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The rationale I've been given is that the helium raised the boat 3-4mm which was required for measurement. My figures show that if helium was used in all three hulls, as one source says, then the lift would be closer to 500lb.
However, using helium to make the difference between measuring in and not measuring in in an America's Cup Challenger is significant any way you look at it.

The really significant issue is that the design team obviously very narrowly missed it's target of meeting rule compliance without the need for minute corrective measures. 200 kilos on a 24,000 kilo design is less than a 1% deviation - using numbers quoted here.

From all appearances, the Helium was a "Hail Mary" rules compliance issue, not a major design feature. We're talking about less than a quarter inch of waterline height here.

Given Ernesto's predilection for legal playground fights, I understand why the Helium was used. Certainly doesn't appear to boat performance tuning.

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Bill

 

[Paul B]

200 kilos on a 24,000 kilo design is less than a 1% deviation - using numbers quoted here.

I assume you are making a point here about using numbers/facts without full vetting. Of course the boat did not weigh 24,000 kg.

Given Ernesto's predilection for legal playground fights, I understand why the Helium was used. Certainly doesn't appear to boat performance tuning.
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Bill

It was not Ernesto's, but Larry's predilection for legal playground fights that caused the problems this last time around.

 

[MalSmith]

I assume you are making a point here about using numbers/facts without full vetting. Of course the boat did not weigh 24,000 kg.

My mistake. I found another source that says 16,000 kg. However, the actual figures are not that important. The order of magnitude is.