Americas Cup: whats next?

[Chris Ostlind]

Manual trimming as fast and as accurately as an SUV full of actuators.... not on your life.

Once the Pandora's Box is opened to having a full time engine to do the work with hydraulics, it would be serious competitive suicide to have opted for a manual system. The guy who chooses to not run an engine in that game is praying for a total hydraulic, and/or, engine breakdown on board the other guy's boat.

And for the record, I agree with Bill; that it turned it into a power boat event that just happened to have sails on board. I've felt that way since the advent of canting keels and the total need for an engine just to make it work.

Total and utter BS for sailboats and without doubt, the end of an era.

 

[Doug Lord]

I remember when John Wooden's UCLA teams would crush opponents by 30 points he would always say things in the post game interviews like, "They were really tough tonight. We couldn't let up for one second against those guys."

Regardless of what Spithill said, that race was over BEFORE the starting gun went off. With a pre-start penalty and a 5% to 10% speed disadvantage Alinghi was not going to compete in that race, even with the good tactics of catching a nice shift on the first beat. They lost by 5.5 minutes going away.

Try again.

================
My apologies "Paul B"-of course you know better than the skipper of USA. What could I have been thinking-tsk tsk......

A top sailors view:
"What a fantastic race. I'd like to congratulate Alinghi for bouncing back and really coming out swinging. That was one hell of a boat race. It was on the whole time and I enjoyed every minute of it."James Spithill,April 2010 Sailing World

 

[Doug Lord]

And for the record, I agree with Bill; that it turned it into a power boat event that just happened to have sails on board.

====================
The incredible and profound silliness of calling these two magnificent sailing machines powerboats is just stunning:
(pix from Alinghi and BMW sites)

 

[ancient kayaker]

Manual trimming as fast and as accurately as an SUV full of actuators.... not on your life.

Once the Pandora's Box is opened to having a full time engine to do the work with hydraulics, it would be serious competitive suicide to have opted for a manual system. The guy who chooses to not run an engine in that game is praying for a total hydraulic, and/or, engine breakdown onboard the other guy's boat.

And for the record, I agree with Bill; that it turned it into a power boat event that just happened to have sails on board. I've felt that way since the advent of canting keels and the total need for an engine just to make it work.

Total and utter BS for sailboats and without doubt, the end of an era.

Good point Chris. Perhaps we can look forward to the day when there's a bank of computers running the whole thing with just an obligatory "skipper" on deck relaxing in his chair watching the whole thing on TV because the views better than on the water. By then we'll be predicting the day when the whole thing is run in virtual reality to ensure utterly fair conditions, and the boats don't even have to avoid one another because they don't even exist. Once it's a video game, millions of people can compete for the cup. wow. Talk about participation! Sounds great, eh?

 

[CT 249]

Well, I watched the whole of R1 (which finished at about 2.30 am here) and found the performance of the boats fascinating. However, I'll also watch Laser races with equal (if not greater) interest, whereas Laser racing bores many people.

The point is, Doug, that the fact that some of us fans find something fascinating does not mean that the general public will give a damn. Just like woolspinning, bog swimming and pigeon racing, the fact that there are fanatics who will watch does not mean that the general public will watch.

Yes, I know that Larry was not talking directly about getting kids into sailing, but I assume that was one of his underlying meanings. Kids aren't the target markets for Oracle or BMW so one assumes that he wasn't trying to get them to watch it to increase the sponsorship value.

A Kayaker, yes of course you are right and speed is the fascination for many spectator sports. But some major spectator sports, like golf, soccer or the Tour de France, are pretty slow most of the time. Nor do they offer much chance of anyone spreading themselves across the landscape.

You make a very good point about the size of the boats making them look slower. Just one more reason to go to 65-80 footers, perhaps.

By the way, in Australia at any rate, power boat racing seems to be much less popular than it was. We used to get hundreds of entries to the world's biggest waterski race as well, now it's dead. Just more evidence that simple speed isn't enough.

Doug, about the Spithill comment. You are mocking Paul because (according to you) he claims to know better than the AC skipper. Yet you have also said that you know more about Moth foiler operation than the former world champ.

Which is it to be? Do you agree that a champion skipper knows more than an onlooker (in which case Spithill and Bora are right) or do you claim that an informed onlooker knows more than the champion skipper?

You can't have it both ways just because that suits you. BTW I can recall James seeming to get pretty excited and upbeat about Etchell racing way back when we used to race him. Maybe he's just an upbeat sort of guy?

 

[Paul B]

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My apologies "Paul B"-of course you know better than the skipper of USA. What could I have been thinking-tsk tsk......

Well, unlike some others, I tend to make my conclusions based on data and observation, not on what someone says.

The fact, based on data and observation, is the Alinghi boat was not competitive with the USA boat in either race.

Neither race was "one hell of a boat race".

 

[Doug Lord]

Yet you have also said that you know more about Moth foiler operation than the former world champ.

==============
That comment is 100% false.

 

[bistros]

================
......

Doug Lord quoting Doug Lord quoting Sailing World quoting James Spithill - this is thread bloat rendered into an art form.

The United States Federal Department of Redundancy Department of the Americas (Federal Branch) could use help.

 

[CT 249]

==============
That comment is 100% false.

You said, here on BDF "My sins against
Mr. Gulari were to ask him a few questions, to point out that his assertion that the standard Moth configuration was a canard was incorrect, and to point out that a dual strut foiler CAN sail with veel heel."

As you have said to Bora;

"First you say that a conventional configuration Moth is a canard-and brag about convincing Julian Bethwaite of this. When I point out your error you sort of apologize.

Is this what you find so annoying? Does the fact that I was right on two clear cut issues and you were dead flat wrong annoy you?"

and

"Sorry to interupt your laughing Bora. But the gap has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the phenomenon I'm trying to get you to understand. You really should do the experiment I described earlier. Make the gap any size at all just so the two pieces are parallel and don't touch when the "flap" is moved.It will open your mind,Mr. Ambassador. You don't even have to tell anybody you did it....."

and, in a thread about Bladerider techology;

"As to BS-you are the expert-characterizing everything I've said or done as BS-and you want "even a little picture"-?? You're funny...
__
Simple mechanics? And what did I say, Mr. Ambassador Bora?
I've got a few simple mechanics questions for you since you are the Bladerider Ambassador-and remember this answer is very important to any foiler: Is the mainfoil flap hinge on the Bladerider a solid state full span hinge? If so what are the charateristics of the hinge movement around zero degrees under load-does the movement have a "bump"? Have you tested it with the wand mechanism disconnected on dry land? Under an 80% load? Huh? Do you even know what I'm talking about? Go for it Mr.Ambassador...."

So you said to Bora that he was "dead flat wrong", you asked "do you even know what I'm talking about?", you "point out his error" and you say he doesn't understand a hinge. That doesn't seem like the words of someone who regards the former world champ as an unimpeachable source. So since you don't regard a world champion in Moths as a font on knowledge about Moths, how can you expect others to regard Spithill as a 100% true font of knowledge about the AC??

I'm NOT (repeat 10,000 times) saying that James was lying, just that when he said "it was on the whole time" he may not have meant that they were seriously threatened. And didn't Tom report that the US team was throttled back in race 2? Surely a remark by Tom on this point, while (from his own account) second-hand, is more accurate that what you reckon Spithill was implying.

And if you are going to say that some world champs are wrong, you cannot get annoyed when someone else points out that the word of another world champ may not be complete evidence for a case you are trying to make.

 

[Doug Lord]

And if you are going to say that some world champs are wrong, you cannot get annoyed when someone else points out that the word of another world champ may not be complete evidence for a case you are trying to make.

=========================
Asking a world champ questions about the Moth is not saying I know more about the operation of the Moth than he does. Pointing out to the world champion that the Moth is NOT a cannard configuration is not saying I know more about the operation of the Moth-only that in this particular case he did not know the configuration of the Moth. (A statement he sorta apologized for).
Regarding the hinge he did not know what I was referring to. I just happened to have an Ilett Moth main foil that I had extensively tested and it was found to have a tendency to stick when under heavy load due, it turns out, to the flap hinge.
I have never tried to tell Bora or anyone else anything about the "operation of the Moth"; I have, however, pointed out the mistake he made in mischaracterizing the Moth configuration from a design perspective. And I did point out what I found on the actual Moth foil that I studied-a mechanical observation that I asked the Ambassador a question about and was ridiculed for the question. In the development of the Rave, binding of the flap hinge was a problem that occurred under load and had to be dealt with-I asked if that was also true on a Bladerider and if anyone had ever tested it.
Again, I NEVER EVER made the statement that "I know more about Moth foiler operation than the former World Champ".That comment of yours was 100% false!

Your original quote:

Yet you have also said that you know more about Moth foiler operation than the former world champ.

==========================
Spithill's comment about the race stands as his own and a prettty informed one at that.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

So, that's it, Doug?... The whole world is either all black, or it's all white. There's no potential, whatsoever, for a vast sea of intuitive, nuanced driven grey, anywhere to be found?

Spithill is a guy who only looks to be complex by your implied type of understanding. He has great, black tools as a skipper and he only makes comments that are so specifically mounted to rails, that there is no interpretive variance on the landscape... This is how you see it?

I say that the gentleman is precisely that... a gentleman. I further say that he is endowed with a particular way of keeping himself from overstating the obvious as a function of his sportsmanship.

Paul mentioned John Wooden. When I was in school at UCLA, Wooden would give regular spoken seminars on campus, even though he was out of the coaching game at that point. I attended these sessions with zeal, as Wooden was then and remains now, the undisputed master of his realm in basketball.

Within these speeches, he would frequently refer to the level of sportsmanship that allowed one to speak of one's achievements while not denigrating the opponent. It is this type of comment stream that is apparently coming from Spithill in the referenced quote. If there's anything that a coach truly dislikes, it is having a smack talking quote from himself, his staff, or his team, plastered on the opponent's locker room bulletin board, serving as opponent inspiration for the next time they meet.

I'm wondering why you don't see that as a part of Spithill's personality?

 

[Doug Lord]

Whats next?

From Sailing World,April 2010:

"It was a captivating 10-mile drag race-perhaps the first soft-water sailing event worthy of that moniker-and one of the most enduring images from the 33rd match in Valencia,Spain, in February. After a disheartening performance in Race 1, Alinghi's soft-sail catamaran was showing itself to be every bit the upwind match for BMW Oracle Racing's wing-sailed trimaran. In 8 to 10 knots of breeze, both boats' VMG up the course was higher than the speed of the wind blowing down it."

" It wasn't simply the wing.......It was also the team's willingness to completely rebuild the trimaran-very little remained of the original boat-and to test out every possible idea, no matter how crazy. A secretion system designed to reduce skin friction was tested, but not used in the race. However, the idea of using helium to help the center hull lift out of the water was."

Wow! that is simply amazing! If that actually worked ,which apparently it did, then it would help enormously with the boat flying a hull steadily thruout both races-vs the up and down of Alinghi.

UPDATE: this is fact and is one of the most exciting, incredible developments in design and construction of high speed sailboats that I have run into in my 50+ years of studying design and sailing. Monumental is not too strong a word!!

 

[Chris Ostlind]

However, the idea of using helium to help the center hull lift out of the water was."[/I][/COLOR]

Wow! that is simply amazing! If that actually worked ,which apparently it did, then it would help enormously with the boat flying a hull steadily thruout both races-vs the up and down of Alinghi.

I'm just a lowly artist and not an engineer guy who is cosmically empowered with the ability to use numbers and lists. Perhaps you could run through the physical needs of the BMWO tri when it comes to having enough helium on board to be able to "aid" in the lifting of the boat. You pick the figure that constitutes enough gas to get the job done.

If you can... also indicate how the helium would be contained so as not to experience loss of gas during the course of a race and how that containment vessel figures into the overall static weight of the boat beyond the racing trim as designed?

The funny and ironic part of all this is: If there were such a system in place and if it actually worked as you apparently believe from a magazine article... you have to realize that the use of the gas within a boat virtually negates the need to have lifting foils installed. I would go so far as to say that the “boat” could be engineered to just barely touch the water, thereby making the full transition away from watercraft, to full-on airborne vessels. Similarly, there’s no more need for racing boats with sails, cause we already have an engine on board

Whooops... there goes the neighborhood with a pile of low-tech solutions to modern sailing performance. ;-)

 

[Doug Lord]

From Sailing World,April 2010:

"It was a captivating 10-mile drag race-perhaps the first soft-water sailing event worthy of that moniker-and one of the most enduring images from the 33rd match in Valencia,Spain, in February. After a disheartening performance in Race 1, Alinghi's soft-sail catamaran was showing itself to be every bit the upwind match for BMW Oracle Racing's wing-sailed trimaran. In 8 to 10 knots of breeze, both boats' VMG up the course was higher than the speed of the wind blowing down it."

" It wasn't simply the wing.......It was also the team's willingness to completely rebuild the trimaran-very little remained of the original boat-and to test out every possible idea, no matter how crazy. A secretion system designed to reduce skin friction was tested, but not used in the race. However, the idea of using helium to help the center hull lift out of the water was."

Wow! that is simply amazing! If that actually worked ,which apparently it did, then it would help enormously with the boat flying a hull steadily thruout both races-vs the up and down of Alinghi.

UPDATE: this is fact and is one of the most exciting, incredible developments in design and construction of high speed sailboats that I have run into in my 50+ years of studying design and sailing. Monumental is not too strong a word!!

================

I have found out that the use of helium for the purpose stated above on USA is a fact and not an April Fools joke, printing error, or any other kind of mistake.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

You still have not shown us how much weight it would have lifted (if any) how the added structure played into the so-called net gain of the boat's performance and how they kept the helium from escaping. All of these issues are far more important than the use of red color and large font would suggest.

I'm looking forward to the day when all the crew members are equipped with negative weight back packs, so that there's absolutely no weight on board that is not countered with a floating, helium filled balloon creaking about on their backs as they go through their tasks. Mind you, it will have to be substantial and that will give fits to the dude in the sewer.