add-on kit hydrofoil for average aluminum "fishing boat" or even....

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Squidly-Diddly, May 10, 2019.

  1. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    "bass boat" or even Express Cruisers?

    All these posts about home-made foilers got me thinking: Could this be added to typical planing hull boats and sold as a kit?

    1)The idea of foiling seems to have wide appeal, but...
    2)Not too many people have skills, shop, time, money (homemade is gonna actually cost more IMO...just like bicycle or car) to make homemade foiler.
    3)Even if they have ability, lots of people (and their wives) would be more comfortable "flying" something with some track record and professional engineering behind it.
    4)Kit should be pretty easy to ship, and store on the off season.
    5)Doesn't look like anything costs much, and wings would be cheap once you get a bulk order.

    Most obvious Mark I would be aluminum outboard runabouts, mostly because owners wouldn't freak out at the idea of drilling a few holes if needed, but maybe Bass Boats too because they are used to travel far and fast over water that is protected but might get choppy. And many Bass Boaters are hot to get the latest snazzy competitive gear.
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 7,353
    Likes: 232, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    You don't see it for good reason, needs to be designed-in really, maybe could be added to catamarans and tunnel hulls as an after-market item, but again the original structure would need beefing up.
     
  3. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
    Posts: 301
    Likes: 36, Points: 28
    Location: Europe

    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Yeah it would be a bit like switching from planing to being suspended by the gunnels of the boat. With a catamaran or trimaran that has structural connecting beams this could work. But a new hull might be cheaper than designing the addons to be flexible enough and then fitting them to an boat.

    One of my crazier ideas was to have four rotating "L" hydrofoil that can be rotated basically 360°. The foils would be facing away from the boat. So you can adjust the angle and on the other side you have wheels to drive on a beach. And you can have them horizontal to reduce draft. Would require 4 rather powerful servos and electronic controls. It's a bit ludicrous but it would be the perfect dingy, fun to fly and you can use it as an electric cart on land :)
     
  4. Sean Duval
    Joined: Mar 2019
    Posts: 26
    Likes: 7, Points: 3
    Location: yuma az

    Sean Duval Junior Member

    The Up-Right Hydrofoil Kits http://www.histarmar.com.ar/InfGral/Hidroalas/The%20Up-Right%20Hydrofoil%20Kits.htm

    Yeah it has been done....and actually was rather successful out here in the southwest.

    Tom Lang is the name you would get the best search results from...I included a link to help you get started.....if I recall correctly was 1970s on the salton sea in southern california.

    He did huge amounts of research and there is still a good bit available because some of us are still nutty enough to explore alternative ideas.

    That said....in one article I read a plastic bag or something getting caught on the foil caused a great yawing effect....also if fixed in place would get you hurt if you found a sandbar or log and would likely pick up weeds while fishing.

    I believe there was another boat besides the little aluminum ones that was a heavy bay liner type hull successfully lifted via ladder type foils and a small long shaft outboard.

    Myself I find Lang's method of automatically adjusting outboard height fascinating.

    Happy hunting.

    Sean
     
    Doug Lord and Doug Halsey like this.
  5. JamesG123
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 650
    Likes: 73, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Columbus, GA

    JamesG123 Senior Member

    Could you do one for yourself? Sure. But no way would the boat's mfg. sign off on a kit for their product, and the might even send you a cease and desist letter to cover their buts, because as soon as the first idiot kills himself or others with your foils mounted, not only are you going to get sued into the ground, so will the boats maker, since they would probably have deeper pockets to pick than you.
     
  6. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    This would be a kit made by a third party manufacturer and sold on Ebay. Probably done without permission or consent of boat manufacturer, and maybe without even naming them, just specs of a boat the kit would fit. But legally I'm pretty sure that Aftermarket firms can make all the insanely dangerous add-on Bad Ideas they want, and name the brands and models of cars, boats, motorcycles and even aircraft they fit, and OEM are limited to vague general "Don't use anything but original Honda parts", and I'm guessing a OEM would be in legal jeopardy if they "threw shade" at any particular Aftermarket player, which explains why you never hear it. I've never heard "Chevy is hearby warning the public against using Motorcraft part#1234 on Chevy Tahoe, because they suck, or rather they don't stop.....the brake pads from Motorcraft, not the fine Chevy SUV". Stuff about "3rd party interference in a contract" in US courts.
    "For shallow V aluminum boats with typical gunnels and transom, between 14 and 15 ft long, and 60 and 70 inches beam, able to fly total weight of hull, passengers and motor of up to 750lbs with 25hp with two extensions. Minor drilling of gunnels required for installation."
    Marathon Boat Group https://www.marathonboat.com/seneca_specs.asp
     
  7. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
    Posts: 301
    Likes: 36, Points: 28
    Location: Europe

    Dejay Senior Newbie

    I've seen servo motors that have active dampening and a type of force sensing from back emf. I wonder if that could be used to make foils safer. When you collide with something under the water the foil could swing back, reducing the force of the impact. Not sure if that could happen fast enough.

    Probably some kind of sonar or ultrasonic sensor would be better to make foiling safer.
     
  8. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Great minds think alike. :)
    All steel and total rig weight of 300lbs. When I first make something I tend to use steel because its cheap, strong and easy to weld, and I figure "lets just see if it works as a 0.6 pre-prototype and I'll take weight off for the 'real one'. I'm thinking lighter and weaker aluminum, fibreglass or even wood might be a safety feature, not a bug, in that the wing and struts would sheer off before they'd flip your boat.

    My fuzzy-brain "calculation" says the Russian Vee surface piercing wing is less efficient but its also self stabilizing, and self leveling "auto-pilot". You just hit the gas and it will rise you higher the faster you go, but not too high because it looses lift as it rises from both less wing in the water, and the wing closer to surface, and if you start to tip the side you tip toward's wing becomes more perpendicular to gravity and gives more lift, pushing you back to level. Plus the strength of triangle structure. Might be the way to go for mass market.
     
  9. JamesG123
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 650
    Likes: 73, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Columbus, GA

    JamesG123 Senior Member

    Use of non-OEM parts voids warranties all. the. time.

    Part of the boiler plate legalese of most contracts and user's manuals is that they take no liability and do not warranty their products when modified or with aftermarket parts and accessories.

    Go dig into the sewers of the product liability and personal damages litigation world, just the case studies, if you want an education about how far you'd be hanging your rear out if you pursue this.

    But, its your rear and your money. YMMV.

    BTW- You'll notice that "Up=Right Hydrofoils" is no longer in business, in fact they were only around for 2 yrs. before "something happened" and they went away...
     
  10. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
    Posts: 301
    Likes: 36, Points: 28
    Location: Europe

    Dejay Senior Newbie

    I think the way to mass market would not be the idea of self leveling foils but use more electronics. Electronics and sensors are so cheap today. I think the key is high speeds with a small boat at low power (e.g. electric) and a very smooth ride. The Talaria hydrofoil boat is the best example I've seen.

    Things like the followers to adjust the angle of the front foil are great solutions but they seem to produce an ungodly amount of spray. What I'd like is something that produces very little spray.

    Something that really gives the feeling of flying over a nearly undisturbed water surface.
     
  11. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    lots of dangerous new toys being sold, and I'm sure they all come with disclaimers. AFAIK, it takes something like a proven pattern of serious accidents or deaths for even legal "pressure" to be applied, like when the US Govt threatened to regulate ALL ATVs out of the market if they didn't stop making the three-wheelers.
    Mr Amazon has "a lot to lose" in a Deep Pocket case, yet he sells these, and sells them to people who his Big Data Mining indicates are mentally unstable, drunk and have families to support. Go figure. https://www.amazon.com/Kangoo-Jumps...200+&qid=1557636672&s=gateway&sr=8-6-fkmrnull

    IMO the "Three Vee" config is best and most stable, the guy in the 1950s was probably had some "I build my products to last a lifetime" hence 300+lbs of solid American steel.

    If it catches on, you will see a dozen imitators anyways, and no practical way to enforce any Patent, since the meat of it has been done in the 1950s.
     
  12. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Yeah, I think there would be room for the two main types, the cheaper 3-Vee lower performance but more safe and stable, and the 3-Tee with electronic auto-pilot.

    IMO an overlooked side benefit of foils is that while stopped they should greatly reduce roll and porpoising.
     
  13. tspeer
    Joined: Feb 2002
    Posts: 2,208
    Likes: 173, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1673
    Location: Port Gamble, Washington, USA

    tspeer Senior Member

    Doug Lord likes this.
  14. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,386
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member


  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,477
    Likes: 287, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Be great to see more detail on the "drag vane"...
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.