Accessibility for disabled/old people

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by musun, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member


    I did,---the parachute did'nt open and the emergency jammed,--Im not doing that again.

    I knew this would happen . But it depends on how much you feel you are putting others at risk blocking with a wheel chair. Again I personally would not think it my rights to have access.

    It does'nt surprise me to learn that others disagree with me, Ive gotten used to it.

    If I were to loose my legs I could have a car modified to drive it myself and the authorities and the police would kindly help and allow, but if I were to kill some one I would feel totally responsible and more so than an able bodied person .

    If I was fat --'obese' my size could cause problems in busy areas. This would be no different in my view to a wheel chair. Obese people are often denied seats flying.

    I dunno but I guess a fat guy did it to himself so he gets no sympathy.
     
  2. wheels
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 28
    Likes: 4, Points: 3, Legacy Rep: 64
    Location: Folsom, Ca

    wheels Junior Member

    "AND IF YOUR BACKUP CHUTE FAILS, YOU HAVE THE REST OF YOUR AIRBORNE LIFE TO REEL IT BACK IN AND THROW IT OUT AWAY FROM YOUR CHEST" (END DRILL SARGENT VOICE)

    As a paraplegic dealing with situations where my wheelchair gets in the way is a real pain. The last time I went deep sea fishing my dad, brother, and a random helpful volunteer had to hoist the chair up over the rail to get on the boat. Getting up and down stairs isn't too much of a problem as long as there is at least one person to help pull up the stairs. If there is SOLID hand railing slopes aren't too difficult up or down. But my upper body is in the best shape I've ever been in.

    The ADA is a good guideline but as with all things different people have different abilities. I have no problem hauling my *** up and down the mandated 1in8 slope. In 35 years when I'm a senior citizen I don't know.

    Docks and marinas are an interesting challenge. Some are perfect. Gentle slopes, smooth transitions, and plenty of handrails. Some aren't. In my personal opinion, if you are providing public transportation and are unable to make it accessible it would be a good idea to have an employee or two with strong backs to help out in case of emergency. I know not everything can posibly be perfect but as long as you're making an effort to provide the assistance needed to overcome the steps/steep slopes thats all I would ask for. Have a plan. Practice it. As for the bathrooms, well, I would hope that it would be designed so I can at least get to them, weather it be a small lift to get to the proper floor or on the same level as the entrance.

    If you have specific questions about something I'm always open to talk. Some people get pissy when asked about their abilities and disabilities. I'd prefer to educate. So let me know :) while we may not make it to the top of the mountain like we used to we can still play in the outdoors.
     

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  3. musun
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 5
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Turkey

    musun Junior Member

    I did not have access to the internet for some time, sorry for it. Do no think I wrote it and disappeared. I am still searching some databases. I found A.D.A. and yes it has been a really good reference for me, I found some other researches too. So that part of the work finished, thank you all.

    About second part, the main part actually, finding solution. By the way, I live in Turkey, not Turkmenistan. The ferries on the photos are the old ones, there are also new ferries but they solved the wheelchair accessibility problem on new ones. I am trying to solve for the olders.

    Anyway, let me tell you about docking problems;


    -some time the dock and the board level became different, too much gap as in the photograph

    -because of the wave, ship is always in motion, and there has to be someone to hold that flat transformer, or plate whatever

    -wheelchair access, not possible, not without any help, and mostly one person's help can not take a wheelchair to board

    -people are impatient in Turkey as I observed for years =), they do not wait until the ship fully berthed, so they start to jump over the gap between ship and dock,
    [because of that impatience, the new design ferries have closed main deck, closed with rail doors, and that also discomfort some of the passengers, fully closed deck .etc]

    And the solution on my mind is some kind of transformer;
    Transformer has been used on yachts, Opacmare Transformer , but this is not enough for a big,dynamic boat.

    I have some solutions some modifies to that system, for safety-bowrail, for absorbing the wave motion-air-suspansion etc.

    Wheelchair access solution to this, is that, people with wheelchair, will be first ones to land, and the last ones to board, thus they do not need any assistance because when they will come to the moving deck officer will push the button and deck will take them to land or to board.

    Other people will climb up the stairs and move on.

    An addition, I dont know whether or not this system has the feature to stop when it touches to land , but if it can not, I think I can add that feature, or officer will push the button to stop it.


    So what do you think about it ? Is it an appropriate solution ? or it is not a solution ?

    Thanks guys
     
  4. Poida
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 1,189
    Likes: 50, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 497
    Location: Australia

    Poida Senior Member

    Thought you'd gone

    Hi Musun

    Thought you'd gone.
    Anyway, I think there are 3 things to consider before the design.
    1. Laws - Being an international forum we all live under different laws. Here a company is responsible for its employees and clients. Hence my previous post where the ferry company virtually said if you are in a wheelchair don't board our boat. Because once they make their boats wheelchair friendly and state as such, they are responsible. Even as Frosty pointed out, in an emergency.

    2. In some countries jetties wharfs what ever are controlled by different shires, councils or principalities. So the construction of the their jetties wharfs etc need to be wheelchair friendly. It is no good landing a wheelchair bound person on a wharf only to find there is a set of steps at the end of the jetty.
    3. How many people in wheelchairs actually want to go for a ride in a boat. Sounds silly because everybody on this forum loves boats but be realistic. You need to do some sort of research to establish what percentage of the disabled community feels let down because they can't go for a boat cruise.

    This figure will also help you sell the concept to ferry companies.
     
  5. MastMonkey
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 92
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Cali

    MastMonkey Junior Member

    If this thread should teach you anything it is that the problem with accessibility is more cultural than technical. The cynicism and negativity is absurd and uninformed. The questions that have arisen as to the potential for liability or even desire for accommodations are frivolous and illogical for the obvious reason that is can and has been done. Obviously, there are restriction that should be considered, just like we do not allow those with mobility limitations to sit in the emergency exit aisles of airplanes, but it is not the vast insurmountable problem others would present it to be. The truth is that this ends up being more an economic argument disguised as a liability issue. No one wants to pay for accessibility, but of course they can't say that directly so instead we get fed cockamamie stories of how in an emergency everyone will obviously be killed by the guy in the wheelchair.

    At least in my progressive state and city of San Francisco, California it was determined any objection or risks were negligible. I can ride an accessible train to work, take an accessible ferry across the bay, and ride buses and light rail around the city. And guess what? I and other disabled individuals do. And there are a couple dinner cruises with full wheelchair accessibility for me and my wife. There are even some marinas around with full wheelchair accessibility including dock ramps that are tiered to keep a minimum accessible slope even with changes in the tide.

    One solution for you to consider is separating the accessible entrances from the regular entrances. This is often used on buses for example where the accessible seating is in the back next to the bathroom and the wheelchair lift is right there. This is often the simpler solution and avoids the complication that result from trying to board or debark with crowds.

    The real challenge is to develop a robust and simple system. Complex mechanical systems break and can be difficult to use. This is a common problem with hydraulic lifts. The other is training staff. It is a common experience for there to be a wheelchair lift available but no one that knows or has the necessary access (most require a key) to use it. But again the biggest obstacle is cultural. And you have my thanks that you are looking beyond it.
     
  6. Poida
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 1,189
    Likes: 50, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 497
    Location: Australia

    Poida Senior Member

    MastMonkey, in all due respects to you and your situation I feel your comments are emotional (understandably) rather than practical.

    I design materials handling equipment if I don't look for problems, ask the guys on the factory floor if they can see a problem, I could spend thousands on a project that simply doesn't work.

    1. Have a positive attitude. (Yes we can design it)
    2. Investigate what problems we may have. (We are at that stage)
    3. Solve the problems.
    4. Design it.
    5. Re investigate stage 2 again. (mechanical problems)
    6. Build it.

    Now your economical statement.

    People who own businesses are tuned into one radio frequency. WIIFM
    What's In It For Me

    Unless you can demonstrate the extra business generated by wheelchair access, don't even start designing.

    The other method, lobbying the law makers to make wheelchair access manditory. (that doesn't look like it is spelt right)
     

  7. MastMonkey
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 92
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Cali

    MastMonkey Junior Member

    Maybe I was overly harsh in my criticism, my apologies. But my critique is valid and objective. My point was simply that it can and has been done successfully, even at a very large scale in a variety of built environments. My original post on this thread sums up my feelings exactly. If something is designed for maximum accessibility everyone benefits. Here are numerous examples off the top of my head:

    Curb cuts are easier for people walking, there is no tripping hazard, and easier for anyone on a bike or carting packages.

    Wheelchair accessible buildings are safer in an emergency because of better and more spacious planned routes of egress.

    Wheelchair accessible public transportation includes accessibility that is a benefit to the elderly, those that would often use it the most.

    Universal design includes better wayfinding and signage to accommodate visual and hearing impaired.

    Better accessibility includes design features like less steps, smaller grades, and larger bathrooms. A favorite of mine to emerge recently has been the "family bathroom." Where are the liability concerns in less tripping or falling hazards?

    A universal designed anything has improvements that benefits everyone.

    It is estimated in the US that a minimum of 10% of the population has a disability. This does not include those that also have mobility issues such as pregnant woman or parents carrying children.

    I am more frustrated that others would attempt to solve accessibility problems by denying accessibility is needed. The economic problem only exist in the sense that it isn't feasible to retrofit every single building, train, plane, boat to be 100% compliant with accessibility standards. I accept this. But if something new is being developed it should make an earnest effort to make accommodations at least if it is a publicly accessible structure . The "liability" issue is bogus, even for boats. And again my point was that it has happened in more progressive societies. In my view there isn't even an economic or business argument. It is a question of rights.
     
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