acceptable filler wire for 5083 h116

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Northeaster, Mar 7, 2015.

  1. Northeaster
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Northeaster Senior Member

    Hi Folks,

    I went with 5083 h116 for my (homebuilt) 25' power boat, due to local availability and price, over other choices like 5086 and 5052.

    I had read that 5083 was slightly stronger but less ductile than the seemingly more popular (in North America) 5086 and is stronger and more corrosion resistant than the more common 5052.

    But ,when it comes to filler wire, all that i had read re: boatbuilding was simplified into recommending 5356 over the less strong 4043, so I bought and practiced with 5356. I realize now that much of this recommendation was based on the fact that 5086 is more popular in NA than 5083 and I had not looked closely enough at the differences and specific individual recommendations.
    So, now I read that the recommended filler for 5083 is 5183, which my local welding supply does not stock, but I would assume could order in.

    I have read that 5356 is slightly too weak to meet the minimum strength requirements of the parent 5083 material, and thus the nod towards 5183.

    What I woudl like to know is if that is of a concern for this small build, where the designer spec'd 1/8" sheet for bottom and topsides and said it could be built in either 5052, 5083 or 5086 - and I have increased the bottom and topside thickness by 50% (reasons of easier welding and based on feedback of similar builds) and am using 5083 over less strong 5052.

    I have thus far only done 3 butt welds with the 5356 wire, and could backgouge out the outside weld and reweld with 5183 if required.

    So, is the 5356 strong enough, albeit not as strong as the 5183, or should I buy 5183 and redo those welds?
     
  2. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Hi. The 5356 is largely enough for your use. Do not worry. The 5183 is for highly stressed welds in some applications.
     
  3. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Not sure where you're getting your info from but 5083 is a superior alloy in all respects. It is the alloy of choice in UK/EU/Australia etc. For some reason seldom used in the US.

    The filler wire if you are using 5000 to 5000 with 5083 is 5356. If you are welding a lot to 6000 then 5183. The 5183 filler wire is more of a universal filler wire. It is 8% stronger than 5356, so unless you're building to world records, I wouldn't worry about it, that's the strength part.

    5356 does give a better quality weld much easier too and it is slightly more ductile than 5183. Thus, it doesn't make much difference, but stick to one once you start.

    For highly stressed regions and where I need a good quality weld, i select 5356 and heligas, as it burns hotter than pure Argon for a 100% penetration weld without issues.
     
  4. yofish

    yofish Previous Member

    What Ad Hoc says.
     
  5. SaltOntheBrain
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    SaltOntheBrain Senior Member

    Tell him what Heligas is.
    There are similar mixtures called by different names by each supplier.
    Gold Gas, Stargon, etc.
    Is it 90/10, 98/1/1, what?

    LF
     
  6. Northeaster
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Northeaster Senior Member

    Thanks to all for the input. I will stick with the 5356 wire.

    Adhoc - When i do a google search, in Norh America, i get alot of info (mainly from NA based alloy manufacturers, suppliers and other related/ advocacy type groups). I am paraphrasing here, but it most sites typically say that 5083 has a higher strength (tensile I believe) but with that comes added brittleness and a lower yield (one site says yield/ practical) strength.
    Most add that the US Navy specs 5086, so therefore that adds to the perception that 5086 is the besty choice...in NA that is.
    Sites also say that due to being more brittle, the 5083 can only be strain hardened to about 1/4 hard, I believe, where the 5086 can be worked more...
    I have read you say that you normally (building larger boats to Class) only spec O temper, as there is often no benefit with Class in specing harder tempers, as they do not allow you to reduce size/ cost, etc. But perhaps the smaller builders in NA prefer the 5086 where they may find benefits with the more work hardened tempers holding shape better on small boats.... only a guess, but anyway the sites here do tend to favour 5086 over 5083.

    Regardless, I am happy with the 5083 I am using and the price I got it for (I did follow your advice and obtain Mil.l specs, showing tests met the ASTM B928 measures) . And from the input here, I fell good staying with teh 5356 wire
    I assume the heligas is a % helium added to Argon, but anyway, I have a full tank of Argon, and do not think I have the critical need to go with Helium for these welds.
    Thanks to all!
     
  7. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    I should preface that I design to Class for 95% of all my work. Thus the values I use for design must pass consistent standards of acceptability. Thus, mills produce a range of certs. If you want a cert that says…yup…it is shinny..it is aluminium..that’s fine. You will get that and some additional data from the mill, such as mechanical strengths. But if you wanted to use this data for design to an international standard such as Classification…then nope, not good enough. It is too wolly and the values of mechanical strength vary too much.

    Thus for designing to Class rules, one requires certain certs to be provided; these being 3.1 or 3.2 cert.; which provides a clear and very consistent set of values. This ally of course costs more because the QA is higher. It is like buying a a SS bolt from your local chandlery. What is its mechanical properties?....dunno..could come from joe blogs down the road or some small mill in china or well..take your pick of any. Thus you use it at your own risk. But on a Class boat, that same SS bolt must be made with SS that using a process for the material and the actual making of the bolt that has been approved and witnessed by Class. In other words, more expensive. But, you know exactly what you are getting and what it will or wont do. That’s the point.

    So, back to your Qs…

    Nope, not more brittle. So looking at actual Class approved mechanical values here:

    DNV mechancial values.jpg

    5086 has 16% elongation and 5083, yup the same, 16%.

    If you now look at the welded strength here:

    DNV Ally welded and unwelded strengths.jpg

    then clearly 5083 in the as-welded strength is superior too. With 5083 = 125MPa whereas 5086 = 100MPa. That is a massive 20% difference!

    You can also see the difference in the “f-factor” applied for the alloys here:

    DNV Ally filler wires f factors.jpg

    Thus 5086 is inferior in all respects to 5083. The alloy 5083 has been the alloy of choice for over 2 decades…why the US does not use it, no idea.

    Nope, you can strain hardened ally of the alloys up to whatever you want. It is simply a case of well,…why bother and what will it be used for? Thus not widely available which gives a false impression.

    Nope….simply down to availability.

    Yes, usually it is around 75% helium and 25% argon. Also used for thicker materials too.
     
  8. yofish

    yofish Previous Member

    "Thus 5086 is inferior in all respects to 5083. The alloy 5083 has been the alloy of choice for over 2 decades…why the US does not use it, no idea."

    Because it's unnecessary to use it for the called-for use. 25 years ago if I called my supplier and asked for 5083 they would've said, "Say what?" Lots and lots AND LOTS of boats along the coast were (and are) made from nothing other than 5052 and they are still floatin'. Lots of 'starved horses' but who cares? At least they didn't crack.
     
  9. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Which actually means...yeah we know about it, but no one here spec's it in the aircraft industry so you will get what we have in stock because we don't want to do mill runs of ally grades where you wont even purchase a full mill run to make it cost effective for us, so we'll just punt you what we have in stock.

    Same with the 6061...no one outside the US uses 6061, or has no reason to at least and not since the late 1980s. It has been superseded by 6082 as it has 3 times less copper and more corrosion resistant - that's why it was specifically developed to reduce corrosion issues found with 6061. Why is 6061 widely used in the US.,..yup..because it is in stock and and used by the aero industry and others. Thus if you asked for 6082 25years ago you'd get....say what?

    And yup..we did ask suppliers in the US for 5083 and 6082 grades 20 years ago when we built some vessels in the US. No mill wanted to comply....too mush hassles for them to change their runs - so much for customer service. So we shipped it over from the UK.
     
  10. yofish

    yofish Previous Member

    My point is basically that it's rather unimportant to Joe Blow builder (me) because I haven't seen the need to pay more (scarcity) for something that may be superior. I say 'may be' because the whole picture dictates what is best, not just the particulars of a certain material. I remember paying under a dollar a pound for 5052 delivered here in AK. Now, why would one pay 50% more for say, the side plates on a set-net skiff when absolutely NOTHING would be gained for either me, the builder, or the client? 5052 takes a blow better than 5086 by absorbing (deforming) rather than tearing. This is not an unusual wound for these types of boats. The hurt may be more ugly but that is always better than a hole. Most of these kinds of skiffs have almost no framing on the sides above water other than longitudinal and exterior. No lives lost, no unhappiness from a client unable to perform their work and the product delivered in a very competitive market.

    What one is trying to accomplish dictates the material, not the other way 'round. Honestly, northeaster could build his rig entirely out of 5052 and 4043 wire and if his welds were good, the scantlings frequent enough and tight to the plates, no one would ever know the difference or ever care - many, many years from now!
     
  11. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    And you're missing the bigger picture.

    It matters not what I think, nor what you think. It is about providing information - independent facts - so the OP can make up their own mind. Without the facts it is rather difficult to do so...and relies purely on the subjective info from the poster.

    Materials progress and move on...so why not tell the OP. Then the OP can decide which is their best way to go.

    When it comes to lives, that is an entirely different Q and requires a brave person to recommend an "old method" over a new improved one, simply because it has been done before. I take it from your comments you're happy driving around in your 1970s car rather than a new one..since the new one is an improved version of the 1970s car, with air bags side bags, abs, lower emissions, better fuel consumption etc etc, which of course costs a bit more?

    Replacing the side of a boat is cheap and easy, which ever alloy is used...not so easy to replace when it is someone's life that is lost - thus, it is not your decision to make, but theirs. And can only be done so with facts, rather than subjective opinions.
     
  12. Northeaster
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Northeaster Senior Member

    I do very much appreciate the correction of any mis-info I have given here - yes, I believe facts presented by manufacturers, suppliers and other interested groups (with vested interests) should be factual, truthfull and non-biased - let the buyer make up his or her mind. (dreamer...)

    Here is a sample of info that appears to NOT be accurate, based on what AdHoc has shown:

    5086 Aluminum Plate

    Alloy 5086 aluminum plates have even higher strength than 5052 or 5083 and its mechanical properties vary significantly with hardening and temperature. It is not strengthened by heat treatment; instead, it becomes stronger due to strain hardening or cold working of the material. This alloy can be readily welded, retaining most of its mechanical strength. The good results with welding and good corrosion properties in seawater make Alloy 5086 extremely popular in marine applications. Alloy 5086 has been used in vehicle armor plate due to its high strength factor.

    source:
    http://www.twmetals.com/5086-aluminum-plate.html

    The principal
    application for 5083 is marine environments.
    The magnesium content is more than 3½%
    Mg, so this alloy can be susceptible to stress
    corrosion cracking, which limits its application
    temperature to below 65°C and also limits the
    amount of cold work to ¼ Hard.
    source:
    http://www.atlassteels.com.au/documents/Atlas_Aluminium_datasheet_5083_rev_Oct_2013.pdf


    I could not find a couple of the sites, where I had recently read about 5083 being more brittle.
     
  13. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Indeed. Which is why even though many amateurs say they don't care about Class nor building to Class and don't need such high values etc, get misinformed. They rely on the sales pitch from the company trying to get you to buy their product that they have in stock. Rather than the correct internationally accepted values which Class require as minimum values, to ensure quality.

    Since, here is what happens with increasing Mg into the alloy matrix:

    Mg v Strength.jpg

    Funny how the values of some of the alloys from sites say are no good are higher up!!

    Then typical strain hardening tempers that are available:

    typical tempers.jpg

    And of course since it is applicable to any 5000 series allow, here is what is available in 5083:

    tempers of 5083.jpg

    Just because it is not a common requirement does not mean it is not available nor possible.

    I would suggest that the supplier does not have the rollers capable of strain hardening beyond 1/4 hard, that is all! Hence their sales pitch.

    PS..if you want more info n aluminium, you should check out the articles written in Professional Boatbuilder Magazine. They have published 3 articles on aluminium recently.
     
  14. yofish

    yofish Previous Member

    "Indeed. Which is why even though many amateurs say they don't care about Class nor building to Class and don't need such high values etc, get misinformed. They rely on the sales pitch from the company trying to get you to buy their product that they have in stock. Rather than the correct internationally accepted values which Class require as minimum values, to ensure quality."

    This is codswallop and you know it.
     

  15. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    There have been plenty of huffing and puffing and blowing of hot air amateurs on this site that says otherwise. They tend to believe the sale pitch because they are less informed, and wont be told otherwise. As their 40 years of blood sweat tears must, really must count for something rather than cold hard facts! These are the types that prefer you to trust them and believe them, without explanations and certainly not allowed to question them..rather than accepting cold hard facts.

    But it's your prerogative which to prefer...you're entitled to your own opinion.
     
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