A Submersible Anyone???

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Charlie Alpha, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Venezuela

    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Gotcha !!!!!
    The back up of the back up of the back up ......of the back up
     
  2. Jeremy Harris
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    I might be missing the point of these semi-submersibles, elegant as they are. If you're going to have a large part of the thing on the surface, why not just fit an upside down periscope to an ordinary boat, one that can be lowered through the hull to peer at the depths?

    Better still, why not do what all modern military submarines do and use a high quality video camera on a pole, perhaps with lights?

    Seems safer and far less effort than making a clear underwater observation hull.
     
  3. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    Not really what I was after.

    Back up is more redundancy.

    Fail safe is when it fails, the result is not catastrophic but rather managable. Lets say, the better of two evils.
     
  4. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Completely understood when I said back up of the back up I ment for redundancy I will say now that I understand fail save in the example of emergency ballast to recover bouyancy very quickly. compressed air or nitrogen to fill normal ballast tanks in case pumps fail or double layer glass/ plexy in case a viewing window suddenly breaks and or leaks rapidly, sealed dry foam filled compartments to make it unsinkable, air (bubble) in observation hull to asure that if even if filled with water there will be air to breatht etc etc etc.

    I gotcha
     
  5. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    URRRRRG
    Yes I think you are missing the point Heck lets forget alltogether about the semi sebmersible and lets go snorkeling better yet we will fit a broad band to the underwater camara and sit home and watch it in our 52' HD tv trough the highspeed internet conection.If you have never being on a sub or semi sumersible please do write it down on your bucket list now and go and try one, even a glass bottom boat ASAP please.
    NO PEEPING TROUGH A HOLE!!!!
    jeremy how do we do this? D o we take turns on the periscope?.Can you imagine people yelling" its my turn, its my turn!!!! " and what do we do with the one person that wont let go of it because he found something interesting in the scope like a halfnaked mermaid .
    But again something good has to come out of it and I will take a sip out of my half full glass of your half empty one.
    How about using your idea of a submarine camera and put a monitor on the cockpit so the pilot have a view of where he is going underwater.

    Thanks
    CArlos
     
  6. PlaningWheel
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    I'm not crazy about my design either but it's better than a pivoting hull.
    So how about a slim hull with stubby wings (diesel powered with a snorkel) and a support boat out at the site with a means to load and unload temporary ballast into your lighter than water boat. Such that it can stay down at a speed of 1 knot or so once it's loaded with ballast.
    It would still be quick between the dock and the site.
    Pumping mercury back and forth springs to mind but your insurance company might not be as enthusiastic about this idea.
    But you can make it pretty fail safe and in reality the amount of Hg ( if it was somehow discharged) is insignificant from an ecological point of view.

    Moving a single weight between vessels???
    A single weight between pontoons that are permanently moored might work if you could grab on to it (electromagnets) and later return it?

    I've built mercury centrifuges combined with pumps and cyclones in the past and they were pretty well as fail safe as you can get.

    Colin
    http://www.cg.xbug.ca
     
  7. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I have this underwater thing solved with the minimum cost.

    Its a huge Sony 3d Plasma TV, and I go diving with the dolphins, mixing with the manta rays, swimming with sharks, canoodling with the corals in marvelous living colour in my living room for the cost of the blue-ray videos. And I get the highlights of a 6 month diving expedition without all the hard work.

    Cramped, expensive crowded underwater ( claustrophobic ) tubes ? ..... hmmm, maybe not.
     
  8. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Now we are talking !!! I summon all the , Naval Engineers,architechs, Captains, and any one with the knowledge to get involve in this post because I also need a bit of schooling I am somewhat rusty and in some (not afraid to say it ) ignorant of some facts.Please do jump in and correct me. I will first of all google some definitions that will help us all understand how things work.

    How far back should we go should we go as far Archimedes sreaming EUREKA!!!! Nah I think every one knows the story Greece , king Hiero, the crown, the goldsmith , did he took some gold? did he not ? sweaty Archimedes, takes a bath in a tub, water gets spilled and BOOOOM EUREKA!!!!

    I was going to copy and paste all the defenitions but I believe everyone here should already know the definition of terms like displacement of a ship, deadweight, tonnage, waterline, draft, freeboard, ballast, and everything else related with a ship if anyone doesnt, please google it and read a little like I did.

    Take a 14' fiber glass dinghy like a boston whaler flat bottom and almost squared no motor no gas tank completly empty. it probably weights about 100 kg it will displace 100 kg of water assuming is on fresh water 100 kg is equal 100 lts of water ( 1kg of water = 1 liter of water (and thats a fact I am not making it up 1.025 kg if saltwater) or it will occupied the space of 100 lts volume of water below the water line which I will speculate that will sink the boat 2 cm to displace these 100 lts of water so at this point we have 2cm draft and just lets say that we still have some 28 cm of freeboard. so just lets assume that for every 2 cm of draft we are holding 100 kg in this case the weight of the boat. Now lets load the boat with 3 standard drums 200 lts capacity each 600 lts in total, we will not consider the weight of the containers but only what they can hold we fill them with water now we have 100 kg of boat and 600 kg of water inside the drums 700 kg. If we stated that we gain 2 cm of draft for every 100 kg now we will have 14 cm and 16 cm of freeboard. this being true for a flat bottom hull it has a certain block coefficient and weted area. change the shape of the hull from flat square to narrow and sharp like a "V" shape and the block coefficient will change. now the bottom of the boat is just a line along the keel and the sides of the boat start at this point and with the same weight of 100 kg now the boat has 10 cm draft and the freeboard is 90 cm put the 3 drums aboard like we did before full of water and now you have 50 cm draft and 30 cm free board. not like the square that sinks at an even ratio the V shape will increase volume as it it goes deeper.
    My point being that you dont need to load the boat with lead or mercury to increase its draft the drum with water will serve as ballast of course some ballast in the bilge or keel will make it more stable but you could even do away with it in a catamaran. I dont know if my line of thinking is wrong please anyone that really knows correct me but I think I got it right.
    With this narrow "V" shape and the increased draft all we need to do is carve the window snap some plexi and we have our semi submersible underwater , empty the water from the drums and hey the boat raised and the view port/ windows are now above the water line.
     
  9. Jeremy Harris
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    Carlos, as other in this thread know, I do have submarine time and worked in underwater warfare for around 20 years. It hasn't filled me with a desire to build one, if anything it's done the opposite, but I do like the idea of being able to get a high-quality real-time view underwater at shallow depths (as anyone who's done it knows, the view below a few metres down with the naked eye gets so poor as to not be worth the effort, IMHO).

    It just seems to me that putting your whole body down in the bottom of a glass bottomed craft is a complex way of getting a really good real-time underwater view in shallow water, that's all. I've played (briefly) with a friends pilot POV VR model aircraft and (speaking as a light aircraft pilot) that gives a remarkably good simulation of real flight, all done cheaply with off-the-shelf parts. I honestly can't see why the same shouldn't work very well for a shallow water underwater viewing boat, either. The VR model aircraft even had head sensing, so as I turned or nodded my head the camera in the aircraft "pilot's seat" turned and nodded, making it instinctive to use.
     
  10. PlaningWheel
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    If you have a box full of air it will float with say 1 cm. submerged.
    If you add a second box full of water to the bottom of it nothing will change.
    If the second box full of water is added to the top of the box full of air the box full of air will be completely submerged.
    But it will be very unstable.
    The point being only water ballast added above the water line will sink your boat.
    One of the features of my design is it's self pumping.
    But I would still prefer to fly underwater instead.

    Colin
    http://www.cg.xbug.ca
     
  11. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Venezuela

    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Hey Jeremy thanks for the imput. First I will like to make clear that is not my intention to start a grudge with anyone here in the Forum all the oppositive I highly appretiate all the comments and critics good and bad it makes me go back over my notes and ideas to re-check them. What I am trying to do here is to make sure that I will be doing it the correct way. Learn what I dont know and reinforce what I do know.I will like to get a very clear picture of the project before buying the first nail.By the time I get started I should know with facts the materials ,technics, the equipment, the form and design, the real budget,working chronogram a solid project not just just a vague idea ( that I have now) Please also be advised English is my second language so some times I probably miss spell or dont make sence in what I try to say or things may come out different from what I ment, my appologies in advance.

    Let me try to explain why I desided to endevour with this project, first of all I see a very good bussines oportunity an open market with a high demand and poor or non existing offer to cover it. I already explain before in a prior post the appeal of the adventure people is just atracted to it. To do something they have never done before there must be a reason why people leave thier home and go to the beach instead of stay home watching TV why parents jank their kids away from the video console or computer and make them go play outdoors . I ask you all why do people go on rollacoaster rides when they know they will be scare and may even get sick . Thats just human nature, to explore, feel the thrill, experience the rush of new things and for most of my potencial costumers thats what they will get ,is something new , something they only saw in picture , TV , or heard from a friend whos cousin new a guy that many years ago had the chance to travel and get on Sub or Semi submersible, I am not saying that looking at a submarine enviroment from a or trough a screen monitor even if they are in the boat that is capting the images is not a neat experience but I dont think that can be compare to say for example diving and looking and touching from up close the submersible would be the next thing to it. To me and thats just my personal opinion making all of this available from a semi submersible that can simulate the inmersion of a real submarine and allow them to look from relatibily close all of that down there is like I said before just AWSOME regardless of the discusion I will make a vessel where people will be able to see the submarine enviroment without having to get wet or paying 100$ to get in a sub besides the expences of travel to get to the place where there is a sub . My only limitation is money how much will it cost but if I have to deside between a glass bottom boat for 40 passenger and a semi submersible for 12 I still will de the semi sub.
    Again is not my intention to make a underwater glass tube no a normal sumesible comparment not all of the craft with very large viewing ports safety and integrity of the vessel is a consern and from deeping part of the hull 3 to 5 feet in the water I can accomplish that.
    I dont know if you have ever dove in the caribbean and where but water clarity here is unreal visibilyt will adverage at around 10 mtrs places like Bonaire will have such clear water that you can perfectly see 20 mtrs we have only days like that here and I only will be skiming the depth no more than 2 mtrs very clear and lots of light will not be like you say "the view below a few metres down with the naked eye gets so poor as to not be worth the effort" maybe in the Chesapeake Bay I quote this place because is one reference that I got from up north never dive in Canada but had in Virginia North Carolina outer banks , and of course Floridad and Florida water are murky compare to what we have here.
    PLease dont limit your coments to what you think will be worth or not I beg you to help me DESIGN A BOAT thats why we are in WWW. boatdesign.net I need to design a tourist boat to carry at least 12 passenger ( may be for 8 will work too), that can change draft to expose the viewing ports above water , that will be able to change draft and submerge these viewing ports, that can be beached. and posible trailable.May be multyhull or mono prefer catamaran as first option.
    I will try to get some sketching done over the weekend and have something to show on monday
    HaPPY WEEKEND to every one I am going to the beach for a while to brainstorm this sketches.

    Regards,

    CArlos
     
  12. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Venezuela

    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Hey Colin

    Yes I understand thats why I inclining towards a catamaran with some fix ballast(not lead ,not mercury ) on its keel may be my emergency ballast chamber and more likely will be cement combined with water ballast but if there is no other way out and forced I will use lead. First I got to have a working design to calculate the weight of the vessel. I have roughtly estimated that the boat itself will be some where around 4500 kg thats 4.5 tons of water displacement, or 4,5 cubic mtrs of water that will be a rectangular box of 5 mtrs long by 1.5 mtrs high by 0.6 mtrs wide . add another 500 kg for the emergency ballast and 4 compartments for water ballast holding 250 lts each that adds up to 6000 tons plus the people aboard 2 crew plus 12 passenger averaging 50 kg each thats another 700 kg 6700
    our sunken box volume looks like 5mtrs x 1.67 mtrs x .80 mtrs and that will be in the case of a monohull that catamaran looks like its going to need alot of ballast to sink at the desire depth and trim it.
     
  13. PlaningWheel
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    Not sure I understand your going to sink a box full of water in the water and somehow gain something?

    Last new idea I promise.

    There are a pile of patents for heavy boats that allow the passengers to look out at very modest depths.

    So like I said final idea (pay me something if you use it).

    This is almost the same as a T. sub operation minus the high tech.

    Your tour boat stays out at the site same as a T. sub.
    It does have little wings and it does have a bit of positive buoyancy. But other than that it's just an empty shell.

    You use a cable with an air line to tow it using the shuttle boat. It flies slowly under water at the end of its tow cable.
    At anytime the driver can release the tow cable and/or the ballast and float to the surface. (if need be?)
    It will also come to the surface if the shuttle boat stops or the driver directs it upwards.

    As you've said transfer between the 2 vessels, at sea, is not a problem?

    Colin
    http://www.cg.xbug.ca
     
  14. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Venezuela

    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    I tough of making a small towed version for one maybe two passengers just to prove concept before making a larger one . I tell you I may even go micro and do several small boats so they can be at different location start with one and if it does well start a fleet of them, a toweable version dont sound that bad considering the many boats here are already towing some tipe of contraption behind them .I could market it as a franchise.
    If I do use any of your Ideas ( or anyone elses for that matter) I will compensate you (or them). I dont know about paying any thing but if a good frienship comes out getting envolve in the project I dont see way I could not open an invitation to host say for week to come and see the creation running and making money. (air fair not included hehehe)
     

  15. PlaningWheel
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    Yes I would love to go to Venezuela but you need to put up a bit of the air fare.
    From a buoyancy point of view it's about a ton / passenger unless you package them in tubes.
    But yes I think to do this cheaply using a shuttle / tow boat to the max. is the best way to go.
    But I think you will still need the better part of $1M and some credit?
    Or you would if you lived in Canada.

    Colin
    http://www.cg.xbug.ca
     
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