A Submersible Anyone???

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Charlie Alpha, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. PlaningWheel
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    This design uses 2 hydraulic cylinders.
    The cat hulls consist of sealed air tanks (top half) and water tanks (bottom half) with valves in the bottom.
    Doesn't require water pumps just the passenger compartment on hydraulic cylinders to fill and empty the water tanks.
    (64 passenger designed for reef tours at about a 30 ft. depth).


    ABSTRACT

    A surface vessel capable of lowering a sealed passenger hull into the water and moving the passenger hull through the water for the purpose of conducting an underwater tour. The vessel is equipped with the means to lower and raise the passenger hull vertically such that the center of buoyancy of the vessel and the center of gravity of the vessel remain aligned relative to the force of gravity. The passenger hull is supplied with fresh air from the surface and expels spent air back to the surface thereby maintaining normal atmospheric pressure within the passenger hull. The vessel contains ballast tanks capable of taking on seawater when the passenger hull is in a raised position. The water ballast being used to offset the buoyancy of the passenger hull as well as increasing the stability of the vessel when the passenger hull is in its lowered position. Before resuming normal surface operation seawater is discharged from the ballast tanks utilizing the buoyancy of the passenger hull while the passenger hull is still below the water surface and not yet in the fully raised position.
     

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  2. Charlie Alpha
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Thanks for the input PW
    I am guessing this abstract came from a patent by the way is written.Is there a web page that you can refer me to with pictures or plans of the above discribed vessel???
     
  3. PlaningWheel
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    No I shut down the website. I got 6 replies within the first 6 weeks and none after.
    When I explained that this would need a design firm to supply the final spec's and that would be $50,000+ and perhaps a year and a half to get it in the water (about $750,000) they lost interest but not because of the price but the fact that it was not immediately available.
    At the moment I'm finishing a more immediate project and hope to do the final test within the next 3-4 weeks.

    Colin
    http://www.ww.xbug.ca
     
  4. Charlie Alpha
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Colin,

    3 to 4 weeks on your present project not the sumersible right? because if you are talking about the submersible I be willing to travel to check it out if this would be alright by you.

    On the submersible, one of my ideas is very similar to yours , in mine the center hull will be pivoting maybe 180 degrees from 0 at the raised position to 90 a mid sumerged at this point viewing port will be almost totally summerged to 180 at full immersion positioning the viewing ports at 1 meter below waterline again top of the hull or cealing of it if you would will be above water. Passenger will get the impression that are much deeper than they really are.

    My project is small I think I can put everything together on a 8 mtr (24 feet) vessel.to host 10 maybe 12 passanger

    Another topic I visited the web page listed below your name in your post I seen tractor races in Luisiana that do just the same thing your amphibious does .question no reverse will it be able to go backwards?
     
  5. PlaningWheel
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    There are patents for the pivoting design.
    You will need ballast in the outer hulls or the passenger hull.
    In the case of the passenger hull water tanks will not work. Like a sub you need to offset the buoyancy with something heavier than water.
     
  6. Charlie Alpha
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Ok Lets see if I understand the principle in a full sumerged sub you will need to acquire negative bouyancy to desent or neutral bouyancy or maybe just positive with forward trust (propulsion ) with some type of fins flire to "fly" underwater once stopped moving your sub will remain static at a given depth ( if bouyancy is neutral) or raise to the surface if positive

    Now this is a Semi submersible not a submarine I am talking about .I had plans to use some emergency ballast that in case of need deploy (let go of weight) to rapidly gain bouyancy. That will be to raise the boat in case of something going really bad.

    BUt during normal operation all I need to do, will be to vary my draft or if you want to see from another point of view to lower and raise the waterline along side same o same o .

    In a vessel that more than 1/2 of it, will be above water in the raised cruising position and say 3/4 of it will be underwater in the inmerse dive position if I have ballast tanks that will ocupied the entire bow and stern section ( vertically from deck to keel only at the front and back ends of the hull) if I fill the ballast tanks all the way to the top meaing that there will be water above the water line inside the tank thus increasing deadweight could this water be enough to sink the hulls to the desired depht ( water line above viewing ports or view ports underwater) and also once ballast tanks are emptied the boat will be liter and raise again ( float ) to cruising mode with view ports above waterline?.

    What do you guys think do I need to put it in a skecht ? make a graffic or the explanation question is enought?? To me makes sence that if I put more weigth on the boat as cargo (wather be cotton, lead or water ) the boat will sit lower in the water .
     
  7. Charlie Alpha
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    here is another creature
     

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  8. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    CA,

    It appears you have a good understanding of what you need to do/know.

    Get drawing and envisioning and come up with simple, fail-safe systems so that when something goes wrong, the result is non-catastrophic. Inherent safety. Google it and see if you understand what I'm talking about. I believe this will be key to your success. That and redundancy.
     
  9. PlaningWheel
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    In all modesty I spent a fair bit of time on this.

    A pivoting system is more complex and is very limited regarding how deep you can submerge the passenger hull.
    The center of buoyancy shifts. The system has U.S. patents that go back for a very long time.

    My design allows the 2 hydraulic (water) or pneumatic cylinders (air) combined with the buoyancy of the passenger hull to quickly flood or drain the water ballast tanks without the need for pumps.

    Also I would not want a boat with permanent ballast as it severely limits the speed between the passenger dock and the reef that you want to tour.

    Also this design uses independent engine rooms in each of the outer hull capable of propelling the boat, supplying pressure to the hydraulic or pneumatic cylinders and supplying air to the passenger hull.

    The passenger hull itself can be an acrylic tube. Some of the newer T. subs are all acrylic hulls.

    I think an aluminum framework with large 1/4 radius acrylic panels would be the way to go?

    The boat has lots of deck space hopefully for a bar and comfortable seating while traveling between dock and reef. $
    Night tours using underwater flood lights would be pretty interesting I would think. Also it extends your operating time.

    Compared to an electric T. sub operation this would be a fraction of the capital cost and a smaller fraction of operating costs.

    A 64 passenger hull with standing headroom has a net buoyancy around 110,000 Lbs.
    If you scale the design down to 16 passengers it is still possible without standing headroom in the passenger hull.

    Colin
    http://www.ww.xbug.ca
     
  10. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I think you are looking at a very workable concept. You may want to consider reducing the amount of 'clear' area to reduce costs and engineering complexity for a first build.

    The engineering calcs and costs of testing go up a lot when you get to large 'clear material' construction according to one documentary I saw.
     
  11. Charlie Alpha
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member


    Elememtary my dear Mr Watson I totally agree but like PW Colin says "would be like your almost in the water yourself rather than looking through a port hole" it will be awsome to have a giant Glass tube to serve as observation hull with water all around and views up down front back and sides. But I wont be able to afford it!!!!!.

    So thats why I ask in a prior post windows or viewing ports? now when I say window ( and again prior post I even mentioned car windshield) I mean a curved clear either plexi or tempered glass window of 1.3 meter ( 4 feet) high and 50 cm (1 1/2 feet ) wide . I would love to have both sides of the vessel clear like in the REEF EXPLORER compcet.

    But again lets be practical how about these very large 1.3 mtr by 50 cm curved window allowing a very large view (no peeping through a hole) and separeted by ribs (10 cm/ 4 inch wide ) and hollow-out bulkheads for a strong structure, with a lip to cradle the glass or plexi and hydrostatic gasket and metal flange bolted to the structure lip to prevent leaks the best of both without going that expensive and again ensuring security and integrity of craft and therefor the passenger within ,without sacrificing the "AWSOME" out of it.
     
  12. PlaningWheel
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    I agree the cost is higher.
    But it would be like your almost in the water yourself rather than looking through a port hole. I think it's worth the price if it can keep you booked up.
    If you do (8) 90 min. tours a day at $50.00 / passenger you gross $25,600/day + the bar.
    The bar return itself will go a ways toward paying your cost of operation.
    It is possible that you may recover your capital costs in less than 90 days.

    Colin
    http://www.ww.xbug.ca
     
  13. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Colin ,

    I hate to be negative .I am the most optimistic person that I know. I always calculated the worse case scenario just to not disappoint myself and happily be surprised if I do better than I previously figured. BUT 25600 a day!!!!! man!!! 8 90 min tours thats 720 min / 60 thats 12 hours no counting embarking and disembarking and unforthseen delays you will be operating 16 hour a day or round the clock even. I would love to be in a location like that 64 passenger times 8 trips 512 passenger a day the heck with the submersible give me the concesion for the Bar on board I will be mixing Margaritas allday long but wait dont tell me ..... how many days a year..... three.... hundred... and sixty.... five..... o urg no no I will not punch the numbers in the calculator I could have a stroke.

    Look I really have to apologize for this behavior of mine but lets be real . I watched very carefully the operation of the Atlantis Submarine in Aruba it can carry 64 passenger they have them in Hawaii, Caribbean and Pacific ( GUAN) http://www.atlantissubmarines.com/ take a look they know what they are doing. This one in Aruba have one departure in the morning for hotel guess salesreps in every hotel plus street vendors and I mean all the hotels in Aruba their concesionary there is Depalm Tours http://www.depalmtours.com/atlantis-submarines-expedition check it out.They have another departure in the afternoom completly reserved for passanger on the (a least ) 5 cruise ships that make call in the island "EVERY DAY" they also have a fast shuttle boat so the sub doesnt have to move back and forth from the dive site to the dock,and loose time.
    When it surfaces from the morning dive the shuttle boat is awaiting to drop on board the afternoom passengers from the cruise ships and pick up the passangers from the hotels morning trip back to shore REALLY I MEAN IT DOWN PACKED clocked to the second.

    AND THEY CAN ONLY PULL TWO TRIPS A DAY AT 104 USD PER ADULT!!!

    I found the page for your semi sumersible

    http://www.oocities.org/cwilson9742@rogers.com/sstext2.htm to me it doesnt make sence to take it so deep when most of the coral life is within the first 3 meters of depth and how will it navegate trough rock formations outcrops and any other elevation from the sea bed . It would be like taking an America's Cup Racing Sailboat with a very deep counterweight keel close to the reefs. Would you do it? I wouldnt !!!

    and your figures seem outrageously optimistic

    FINANCIAL BREAKDOWN (Yearly - U.S. Dollars)


    Revenue:(based on full capacity & $35/passenger)
    (64 passengers*10 trips/day*360 days oper.)
    8,064,000

    Expenses:

    Dockage: 120,000
    Wages: Pilots (2) 140,000
    Co-pilots (2) 120,000
    Tour guides (2) 70,000
    Reservation clerks (2) 50,000
    Fuel: 80,000
    Maintenance: 50,000
    Misc.: 60,000
    __________________
    690,000


    NET (Before Taxes): 7,374,000

    Again my appologies if I sound (read) harsh but come on lets keep it real
     
  14. PlaningWheel
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    PlaningWheel Junior Member

    No maybe I'm the most optimistic person.

    Anyway those are old figures and yes maybe too good to be true.

    "The shuttle boat is awaiting to drop the passengers on board"
    Because the T. sub has very limited power / speed and can not go between a protected dock site and the tour site. The passengers have to make an offshore transfer from a light shuttle boat to a semi-submerged T. sub. Can this be done if the waves are 3' or more?
    A 64 passenger shuttle is not a small expense nor is a T. sub and it's day to day costs.
    You must already have an idea about how much it cost to tow this T. sub back and forth and what has to be done overnight to get it ready for the next day.

    I'm assuming a site that's 5 or so miles from the dock and a boat that can do maybe 20 mph.
    10 min. unload/load passengers.
    20 min. out to site.
    40 min. tour.
    20 min. back
    Half the fun is riding on this magnificent catamaran out and back.
    And $50 / head is very reasonable.

    Or maybe it's only 6 trips / day and no night tours still a lot of $ if you can keep it booked.

    Colin
    http://www.ww.xbug.ca
     

  15. Charlie Alpha
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Charlie Alpha Junior Member

    Very good Colin . just by saying " yes maybe too good to be true." you are putting one solid foot step on hard ground and gain back a piece of my heart. I do appretiate bravery and to admit wrong takes alot of it.I applaude you take my hat off and make a reverence.I say all this because I am very stubborn myself.

    Look I dont know you or your back ground. What I really know is Marine operations from 250 mtr plus LOA Oil tankers to tire innertube with a paddle. I seen ferry pilots make 360 swoops from one side of a channel to another landing portside along side in the same spot of the dock each time over and over again. I ve seen Tugboat Pilots dancing like balerinas swirling around from bow to stern to midship pushing and pulling a monster tanker until they bring it so delicatly along side an offshore oil platform with heavy seas that a kiss from my wife may feel rough compare to it.
    With this I dont want to put down your project I rather want to be devil´s advocate and and show you the harsh side. To manuever a 70' Cat and bring it alongside takes alot of skill specially if you want to do it quickly , to cast off will be easier but I dont see that you will be able to do this in 20 min or less.
    Another thing is embarking and disemabarking you really need to know people especially if they are drinking believe me sometimes will be easier to load/unload a herd of goats than a herd of drunken passanger (they will think they are pirates).
    Consider everything that may go wrong becuse It will. MURPHY is right.!!!!
    In my opinion I do truely believe that if you go out on your first trip of the day and stay on the dive site while you have small shuttles to bring your passenger aboard you will be able to bring more people in,only make sure they take their turn on the sumersible hull before they start drinking, and once they surface they can stay longer aboard sipping Margaritas and go ashore on any shuttle when ever they are ready, more $cashing$ sound in the cash register of the Bar. You are worrying about the trouble of embarking and like you said "thats part of the fun" and the adventure ,the amount of clients that you will loose because of this will be minimun( and I dont mean they will fall overboard , they just will not go on the trip at all) I ve seen 80 year old lady with walker get aboard that Aruba sub from the shuttle with less trouble than a 18 year old that was unsure that she could do it ,if they are up to it they will give it a try if not they wont even get aboard from the dock.Or develop a way for them to do it more confortable and secure, locking gangways, forklift the shuttle onto the cat I dont know!!!! just crazy thinking.
    Also consider the Weather factor. There will be storm days , there will be days of heavy seas that your 3' wave will turn to giant 5 mtr and last and not least you have to stop for maintenance and breakdowns even if you dont want to, so get out of your head that you will be able to work yeararound Its just not possible.
    With this final comment I will close this conversation about your project in this forum, a least from my side . I will give you the benefit of a repply but if you want to further discuss the matter I'll be more than glad to do it trough my email and I think we should go back to
    to my Project and see how we get this Semi Submersible on the go. ALL ABOARD!!!!!!

    Regards,
    CArlos
    charliealphams@gmail.com
     
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