a real ship , beautiful and ??

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by JEANYANG, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)

    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    That was cruel. :D
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Apparently you (Daiquiri) have spent some time at the helm of a sailboat sloshing along in heavy weather too. Cruel, maybe a tad over stating, realistic, yep . . . Anyone who's had a the wonderful sensation of ice cold, soggy underwear to sit in, before the next wave boards and runs down your back, momentarily taking your mind off the sting of salt crystals forming around your nostrils, eyes and mouth can appreciate the comment.
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    hey Jean
    forgive me if I second par on post # 11
    Im planning to retire back to the water in a few short years
    Im considering three designs
    one is nearly identical to what you have shown except
    its 39'
    Ted Brewer's friendship sloop design
    and thats just to get me back on the water and do a few weekends up the coast

    gives me something to practice on and screw up a few things with

    Ive been going through the same debate you are but with one small difference
    Im planning on doing a lot of coasting in order to get my time in before the mast
    one thing I learned early is that if the ocean wants you and you were dumb enough to go out unprepared
    its got you
    and I grew up on the water
    got lots of time out splashing around
    transoceanic sailing is a hole new animal
    I went out a few times but always had plenty of help and was on larger boats

    do what you dream of and more power to you
    but it would also be kinda cool if you make it across the pond
    one screw up in a small boat far from land and you could be done for

    go with the biggest boat you can afford
    positive flotation
    eprb is a must
    and back up everything
    wear a safety line in the rough stuff

    who am I kidding
    these guys can tell you way more about it than I ever could
    but listen to em

    I know just enough about sailing to have a dam healthy respect for it
    these guys know there ****
    oh they dont agree on jack
    but they know there ****
    youll do better listening to em than not

    err on the side of caution and have a great time of it

    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: china

    JEANYANG Junior Member

    hello! Boston
    the 39' Ted Brewer 's friendship sloop you metioned are just I in favor of .
    Classic ,as the atkin's maid of endor .thank you !
    You talk about sailing ,your article are excellent !
    yes , I meant to take many differenet views.
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    the friendship sloops are famous for being sea worthy
    and the area of the world were they were designed for is known for rough water
    also they are rugged
    in a world were keels seem to be falling off boats left and right
    that keel is going nowhere

    glad you found some value in that last
    a guy named Joshua Slokum sailed round the world alone in a Gloucester fisherman
    basically a friendship sloop way back in the mid 1800s

    ok the boat was a mut but it sure looks like a Gloucester fisherman to me

    it originally was a gaff rigged sloop but he switched it to a yawl rig
    which is kinda funny
    cause some folks here have suggested to me that I do the same if I want ease of handling when Im single handed
  6. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The yawl "Spray" was a an oyster dredger and about the worst vessel someone could venture off shore in. The exploits of the Spray are a testament the her skipper's supreme seamanship skills, not the abilities of the boat. Spray was a very cut up and modified version of her former workboat self, when Joshua left the east coast for the first time. She wouldn't survive a capsize, had a very unimpressive stability curve, skidded to leeward like a board up scow, could barely tack through 100 degrees and generally was a pig in most every regard in which we measure a particular boat's sailing qualities. He knew these things and this is why he added a bunch of deadwood to her (twice), converted to yawl rig, chopped off her counter and the many other changes he made.

    Friendship sloops are a much admired craft. If the design is a traditional one with strong family roots, then performance will not be especially notable and not well suited to ocean crossing, though coastal cruising is fine.

    Many "renditions" of Friendship have been done over the years. I'm currently working up a 26' "in the sprit of" Friendship. It looks like a friendship in most ways above the LWL, but her underwater areas have been optimized, to take advantage of the many things we've learned since the late 19th century beginnings of this type.

    In short, most of these "antique" vessels are much more then a typical "modern" sailor can handle. They are usually poorly suited to modern cruising, accommodations and sailing attributes. These types of boats general cost more to build (displacement can be directly related to build cost) and more difficult to handle under sail.

    JeanYang, if I were you, I'd be looking at a wholesome, but more accommodating design. A good CCA rule 'glass classic would be my first recommendation. Examples of these fine yachts are all over the place and many can be had very reasonably. Because of the CCA rules they conformed to, the boats had nice, sea kindly shapes, healthy stability curves, gentle sailing manners and classic good looks. I'd look into late 50's to late 60's versions of these boats. They were often built like tanks, with very stout hulls and though they don't have the mammoth aft cabins of the modern, fat butted class racer/cruiser, they are smart sailors and will bring you home in one piece and at a fair turn of speed.

    Find a Lion class sloop (usually converted to yawl) from Choy Lee, or one of Phil Rhodes early 'glass masterpieces, like a Ranger 28, Swiftsure 33, maybe a Chesapeake 32 (later version), plus the many others of this era. These are fine, safe and sea kindly boats, that can be had cheaply and will always take care of you.
  7. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ild be listening to Par more than me on that Jean
    I got my own ideas on what I want to coast in
    but for basic know how these guys are the bomb
    all I did was sail around a bunch as a kid
    these guys eat sleep and breath design
    ( except I hate fiberglass with a passion )
    so thanks for the correction par Ild sure hate to steer anyone wrong

    thing sure looks like an old gloucester fisherman ?
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If we're talking about the same boat, the old Gloucester workboats were the predecessors that drove the eventual evolution of the Friendship sloop.

    There was a fairly well known sloop called the Gloucester sloop boat. It was used to fish the deeper waters off the coast of the northeast. They generally were bigger then the Friendships, deeper, more burdensome and in my opinion a much better suited deep water boat, if for no other reason then their size. From the likes of these boats, came a variant, which was to be used for lobster fishing on the rock ledges in near shore fisheries.

    This variant eventually mutated into the Muscongus Bay Sloop. It had very similar attributes, though was proportionately smaller and less burdened to be handy in the often crowded waters of the area. These boats were free standing rigged sloops, usually quickly built, used a few seasons then sold in favor of a new one. Eventually a builder named Morse developed a reputation for turning out fine examples of these little sloops. He lived in Friendship Maine, so a few names were stuck to them. Morse sloop at first, then Friendship were finally attached. He by no means was the only builder, just one among many, but the name stuck.

    These new sloops were moderately rigged in comparison to their working sisters and distant cousins. Standing rigging was employed, the low, small cuddy replaced with a "proper" cabin and refined for yacht use.

    If one of the Morse sloops was placed on stands next to what most folks think of as a Friendship today, you wouldn't recognize the two as descendants of each other. As a yacht, they didn't need to carry tons of sea food back to shore and the accommodations were vastly different, as was the rig and how it was applied to the sail plan. The Friendships we know today are finer, have less beam, smaller rigs, more comfortable cockpits and cabins, stylized clipper knees and transoms.

    A typical Friendship was under 28', with 20 to 25'' being an average size. The Gloucester sloop was up to 50' in length. The original smacks that the Friendship descended from were centerboarders, but the Friendships adopted a deeper, full keel around 1880 as part of the evolution in the type.

    The Spray was a quite a different craft all together. It was also a fishing sloop, but very different in shape, having much harder bilges, designed as a centerboarder, full entry, beamer and it's assumed it had a counter stern that was cut off (rotten) and planked over as a barn door transom. Slocum, replaced pretty much every stitch of lumber in the worn out old Chesapeake Bay workboat, before he set sail from Boston in 1895.

    It was so bad a sailor, that modern interpretations of the Spray have, deepened the keel, changed the rudder, underwater shapes, entry, etc., just to make it acceptable to a modern sailor's sensibilities.
  9. johnpeer
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    johnpeer New Member

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  10. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member


    Your location is China, if you can get to Hong Kong there are many yachts there, try Royal HK Yacht Club.
    Ocean sailing is no simple game, and must be taken seriously or the consequences are fatal. Ocean sailing is also a beautiful thing to do, once you have gainmed some experiences assisted by others in understanding the sea. I am sure thast there will be someone at the club who will be happy to take you out a few times to see if you are still interested. If you find that you do like the conditions of being offshore, then maybe you can do one of the races to the Phillipines, that will give you a taste of a longer trip.
    Being in company of experienced sailors will keep you sasfe and their understanding of the sea and weather conditions will rub off as time goes by.

    Please do not think that you can simply build a small yacht and expect to survive the sea condition because you have a seaworthy vessel. Seamanship is what steer that seaworthy vessel, and it takes time to learn, just like any trade, time is of the essence.

    Sailing is the most wonderful experience you can imagine, but like being on the land, there are good days and there are bad days. The bad days make you say "never again", till the sun comes out, the seas calm and all is wonderful again.

    Please take your time, learn to sail a dinghy, then sail a keel boat, and get plenty of time on board, before you even think of building a boat. You HAVE to understand the conditions that the boat will be used in before you can even contemplate design factors.

    ...and best of all...enjoy it.
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