90 x 90 Race Multi

Learning Multihulls

...an interview with Ed Baird the day before this stuffing. Sounds as though these guys should be ramping up to multihulls a bit more gradually

Ed’s looking forward to sailing the America’s Cup on a multihull

Alinghi’s sailing team is in Lorient to have a week’s training session on board the trimaran 60 ‘Foncia”. Sebastien Destremau from adonnante.com invited Ed Baird to comment on his experience as he stepped off the boat.

AD: Sebastien Destremau: Ed, what have you been up to since Alingi’s historical victory in Valencia last year?
EB: Given the situation, it has been very quiet from a sporting standpoint for us however we have been busy planning for a conventional 33rd America’s Cup as we previously expected. The team was working on refining our calendar as well as researching and designing the new AC90 up until very recently. But this is history.

SD: Do you have a viewpoint on the current legal battle between your team and BMW Oracle?
EB: First and foremost I am an athlete and my job is to make sure that Alinghi remains the best possible team on the water. But it saddens me to see that the legal issue has already delayed the whole process by 7 or 8 months and effectively eliminated the rest of the challengers.

SD: Getting back to the sport, you arrived today in Lorient to sail on ‘Foncia’. Have you ever sailed on this kind of boat?
EB: No, I have sailed on smaller multihull’s but never on a 60 footer. So that was a first today. They are quite amazing machine’s and we are getting really excited about learning how to understand sailing on this type of boat.

SD: What did you do today specifically?
EB: Well, the wind was very light as opposed to yesterday when the boys had a blast. They came back with huge grins on their faces after spending the day sailing with 25 to 30 knots of breeze. Today was much quieter and although we did a few maneuvers around the buoys. We spent most of our time discussing and understanding the various systems and process of these boats.

SD: Is the team enjoying sailing on a 60ft multi? Or would they rather sail on an IACC V5 or AC90?
EB: Our preferred choice would be to keep sailing on big keel-yachts like the AC90 however we have been forced to prepare for a match in multihull. The team is now focusing on learning as quickly as possible to assist our design team in their mission to create a winning multihull.

SD: Assisting the design team? It is now common knowledge that you haven’t started building yet, so are you saying that you are still designing the multi?
EB: As you know the design is a long and an ongoing process for us. I am not saying that we haven’t started designing but we have to learn very quickly to understand the mechanics’ of these multihulls. Our design is not finalized yet so we are working pretty hard and you are well aware we have very limited experience in this kind of boat. We are trying to put ourselves in the best position to feed our design team with thoughts, feelings and new ideas to help them develop the best racing machine we can get.

SD: You have been sailing on the VX40 in Valencia and now here on an Orma 60. Can you give us your thoughts on Cats vs Tris?
EB: I am not too sure at present. Being a sailor yourself, you know that the bigger the boat the harder it is to feel her. You have to rely on the electronic’s, computers and other things to assist you in sailing the boat as fast as possible. Today, I was focusing on understanding the difference between my feeling and what the electronic was telling me.

SD: Isn’t it a challenge for you guys to go back to “school”?
EB: Oh yes. After having stomached the fact that we were not going to defend the Cup in our preferred way, the whole team is now finding this new challenge extremely exciting. Don’t forget that it is our duty to defend the cup against whoever wants to get his hands on it. The sailing guys knows that as much as the design, legal, marketing, shore teams, etc… It is our responsibility to work hard and prepare the best possible defense on the water and that is one of the reasons we are here.

SD: Alinghi has always been a role model in their racing plan. From a match racing point of view, how do you adapt the game plan to multihull sailing?
EB: That is something that we have been working on. Defining a game plan is key. We have noticed in Valencia that covering your opponent up wind does not achieve as much as what is does on a keel-yacht. Downwind you think you have built a “buffer” however your opponent can catch-up extremely quickly. Distances can be huge between boats but time wise there is not much in it. So it is very different and our goal is to learn, learn, learn…

SD: One would wonder how the start is going to work?
EB: Yes. It is going to be very scary isn’t it!! (laugh) Can you imagine two 90 ft multihulls going head to head at 25+ knots before the dial-up? I know what side of the start line I would rather be! More seriously, with all the recent legal issues put aside these boats are going to be absolutely amazing and the racing will be very spectacular.

SD: What’s next for the sailing team? And are we going to see you back in Lorient soon?
EB: We have an extremely busy sailing and racing calendar this summer. However we have to be as flexible as possible. The team works as a whole and sometimes we might have to adapt our schedule to internal or external circumstances. We will endeavor to come back here, but I am not in a position to tell you when!

SD: Fair enough. Is there anything you'd like to add?
EB: Yes, one could assume that our moral would be low after the recent decision. However, I’d like to say how impressed I have been with the team here. From the designers to the sailors, the whole team is 150% committed to give their best. We are definitively looking forward to defending the Cup successfully.

SD: Thank you Ed for taking the time to speak to us. The weather forecasts for tomorrow (today) should be 20 to 25 knots and you will probably have a ball. Good luck and have fun sailing on Foncia!

 

90x90 race multi

hey Chris
Foncia, if I remember correctly, does not have banana foils but angled straight ones, or if she has bananas, they are a recent addition. Anyway both types are doing the same job, lifting the leeward float, stopping it immersing under power and both are efficient at that. However the whole boat (like Foncia, which has full length, high buoyancy floats) does not pivot on that leeward foil like Hydroptere.
My two foilers don't have bananas but angled, straight float foils, the larger boat Groucho Marx, has angled OUT straights with tips, like a reversed L.
I agree that inverted T rudder foils does not have relevance to Foncia's endover, my point is that these rudder configurations do a great job (usually) of halting this embarrassment. The exception is the nose dive of ORMA 60 Gitana 10 (as Doug Lord points out) as she had an inverted T rudder and still went over. IMHO they were carrying far too much sail in savage conditions - and any boat is going to come to grief configured that way. And I also believe that Foncia's inversion was due to the same thing, caught out with too much sail up for the gusting wind conditions, a basic.
Agreed the ORMA tris will lift their loaded leeward float clear at times from waves passing through but from my viewing their floats are usually kissing, or slightly down, from the water surface, as they were designed to do.
Your point about Hydroptere crashing after smashing a foil into something is irrelevant: any smashing into solid objects is going to slow down or wreck any type of yacht, be it foiler, multihull or ballasted keelboat.
My point about Hydroptere is that the boat has never, to my knowledge, tripped and crashed or nose dived like Foncia - or if she has, then they survived the incident unscathed. Obviously the crew are experts fully in tune with their advanced design and know everything about the boat - and that I think is the difference to the Alinghy monohull bunch who were way out of their depth on Foncia.

 

At the end of round one:
Chris Ostlind: 3
Foilers: 0

Here is a photo of Foncia on the first day of Alinghi Training.
Banana (curved) foils? Check
Ama forward of foil out of water by 3+ feet? Check
CoG higher than w/o foils? Check

Why is there an argument? The foils are certainly able to generate lift downwards that drive the bows deeper and increase the chance of capsize or pitchpole. The higher CoG at speed certainly increases the pitchpole inertia and thus increases the chance of a bow down excursion lifting the rudders out of the water and reduces the chance of recovery. Sounds like Chris nailed it.

Turning down with the rudders and not the sails (traveler down, jib in) was a rookie mistake. Too bad they broke a borrowed boat.

If two of these 90x90 multi's get built, will they survive long enough to race for the AC?

 

I was going to enter a comment on this probable 'need' to get some multihull experienced crew on board, but then I thought better of it. In the long run it will bring more new interest to multihulls if these mono guys get really excited about sailing these boats (all of them)....so let them learn.

 

I agree ... there is some interest building in a multi-hull AC ...

This event (the high profile capsize) has opened some eyes. The struggles that the sailors had on the learning curve with the VO70's is nothing compared to what the sailors face now. The VO70's were the first high profile boats that had "speed limits" a safe flight envelope if you will. GP sailors are used to forgiving boats, a big oops might have the mast out, not such a big deal compared to a 20-30 knot pitchpole. The VO70's could be pushed hard enough so they started to come apart, the best teams figured this out early and managed to finish.

What statement is made when the people that are thought of (by mainstream sailors) as the best of the best don't have the skill set to keep a big multi right-side up? These boats are sailed single handed in ocean races, for me it puts Dame Ellen in a whole new light.

Some sailors can sail these things on autopilot and sleep in the Southern Ocean ... an AC team flips one in 20knots with a 30knot gust?

If I wanted to be provocative, I might ask if the 100+ year ban of multi's in mainstream racing is because most sailors can't sail the boats?

 

It will be great for tv when the crew start falling overboard and the hulls break up. Think of the glory.

 

Here are some more pics of the capsize - I had no idea by the way when I posted the above!

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/08/0329/

 

Apparently the teacher was showing how the canting mast works, Ed Baird was driving ...

Canting masts and banana foils and three hulls ... oh my!

 

If you let Valentino Rossi out in a MacLaren F1 car you could safely bet a $1,000 he would prang it despite being the most gifted motorbike rider of his generation.

Ed Barid thinks he can drive a yacht fast, its just that he hasn't driven anything quite like an Orma 60 before. Nuff said really.

 

I do not wish to make this a wanking contest, but when you use that example above, I am immediately drawn to the driving records of John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, Giacomo Agostini and the USA's Joe Leonard. Besides these greats, there are literally, dozens of well known, former motorcycle racers who have gone on to excellent careers in automotive racing.

I would take that bet with you any day, as at least Rossi knows the business of keeping his vehicle off the wall and he's a solid pro in his trade.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Surtees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Leonard

 

90x90

Actually Rossi has already driven F! and apparently set times right up there with the best.

 

A bit of wishful thinking there:

More than 3 seconds off the pace in his second test drive for Ferrari in 2005. The rumors were that after Masa's contract (1 year) was up, we would see VR in a red car in 2007 ... Ferrari stuck with Masa.

So, of all the bike guys that have tried it, very few have made the change. IIRC Mike the Bike Hailwood was one that did not have much success on 4 wheels.

Ago didn't do so well either:

I'll admit that a top GP bike guy has a better chance of transferring than many of the top drivers in other motorsports, but it is far from a safe bet.

A better comparision might be, don't expect a vintage sedan racer to do well in F1.

The top leaner sailors are not used to getting spanked for their mistakes.

 

Bae jaysus we have a wanking match whether we like it or not !!

I thought my comment might raise some eyebrows and thats why I made it.

I am well aware that Rossi tested for Ferrari which is why I stated Maclaren and being a long time rider of bikes (I still have a CBX1000 and a Laverda Jota 1000cc) I am also familiar with John Surtees however..... in the case of all of them they had to adapt to the new vehicle and didnt simply get in and squirt.

Whilst our mate Mr Hough has made an interesting and thorough response, suffice for me to say that fast drivers, riders or sailers or leave their medium and enter another need to relearn their trade - the physicals of acceleration, balance, cornering, braking, weight distribution. It is not gameboy driving, its the real things and they have to take the time to adapt.

Alinghi getting into a tri with the mono team is no different. I wish them well because I think they will struggle. Better to go straight for the multihull experts in my humble opinion.

**** on !

 

Not trying to turn the thread in to wankfest.

It is true that a GP bike rider has more of the vehicle control skills that transfer to GP autos, than a GP mono sailor has boat control skills that transfer to GP multi's.

The reason I started this thread was to see if any had or was willing to put some serious though as to what will be the best solution for inshore course racing in a huge multi-hull. The AC started as a design competition, and this one has a new challenge.

The 100 plus years of keeping multi's out of mainstream racing has prevented the mono guys from having any idea what they are stepping into.

Now even the GP multi guys are looking at a new challenge. The Orma Tris are multi-task boats. Part of the deign requirement is that the boats can be sailed/raced single or short handed on open ocean.

The 90x90's for the AC don't have to consider ocean racing or shorthanded racing. They can be completely focused on inshore course racing. They could be truly outrageous boats.

With the loads involved, will the weight of human power be a limit? How many crew will it take to do more than just sail around the course?

In this AC design contest, GGYC has committed to the big end of the limits ... 90ft LWL. Could it be so hard to sail a 90x90 to it's full potential that a smaller boat (more easily sailed) could be a faster choice?

What is going to be the most difficult thing to scale up from a 60x60 Orma to a 90x90 AC multi?

 

This is a ****-free zone, gentlemen.

There's an obvious reality in this mix and up until now, it has not been mentioned. Let's look at the guys at the top echelon of motorsports as the comparison with sailing monos to multis applies. What you see is that some of the best drivers of their time (50'-70's) could comfortably transfer their talents from discipline to discipline.

It isn't just Surtees, Hailwood, Joe Leonard from the 50's-60's era, but also guys like Mario Andretti who won at the highest levels of auto racing, no matter the vehicle or driving style required. Andretti is truly a unique individual in that respect, but that's another story for another place.

From my observations, what is happening today is a huge movement to specialization of skill and it is not just in car, bike and sailing that this is happening. It is my opinion that the technological capabilities of designers, fabricators and materials, have begun to leave the human arena of skill adaptations behind. This has forced the human pilots to move into chosen fields and then stay there with little crossover. It's not that the Alinghi dudes can not learn to drive an ORMA60 tri with some level of skill, it's that they can't afford to take the time to do that and still maintain their edge while operating their monohulled craft in any normal year of sailing.

The steady and even accelerated march of technology in sailing is beginning to outstrip the human capacity for adaptation, forcing specialization within the craft.

As long as the table is littered with a fun collection of metaphoric comparisons... One look at the design and construction of high tech jet fighter planes will show you that in that arena, the human driver is barely hanging on to his physiological ability to be in the vehicle during normal operational expectations. Humans have already been removed from the actual physical movement of the control surfaces to a large degree and they sure do not run the sophisticated targeting systems for engagement, they merely tell them when to shoot, but not how to hit the target.

It will not happen immediately, but perhaps within my lifetime (I'm 59 right now) racing sailboats of this type being discussed, will be run remotely from a chase boat, or even the shore in a fly by wire experience. There may be a vestigial human aboard the larger boats where a single person's weight will be much less significant, but even that won't be truly necessary.

Say hello to your kid's Wii for the future of the AC. Then, you will not need to be an athlete to crew one of these machines. Hell, you could even be an out of shape fatso like DC and still win the Cup... ;-)