90 x 90 Race Multi

and here is a bigger one, 130ft

 

Well the Banque Populaire tri will be a nice sparring partner for the new BMWO tri.

Wonder what happens when the hydrofoils kicks in.

Sorry but I can't refuse to see the safety aspect what happens after a nosedive.
Perhaps it's better for me not to join this discussion. But lets see what happens.

I must warn you ... I have some inside information that might blast you of your feet

 

Thanks Chris,

I will :idea:

 

How is potential danger a problem?

I *could* slip and fall to my death on my front porch stairs, I suppose you would refuse to walk on them.

It has been my experience that each of us evaluates risk in everything we do. We only chose to expose ourselves to the level of risk we are comfortable with.

I've enjoyed several sports where a single mistake could be fatal. I am not suicidal, I have no death wish. I happen to enjoy exploring my personal limits. If my sailing skills were good enough I'd be trying to get on the BOR90 in a heartbeat.

Just because this level of risk is fairly new to sailing is no reason to condemn the boats.

I understand that you would not sail on one of these boats, but that is only a reflection of your personal risk comfort level. Sailing a boat where the worst you can do it loose a mast or broach is for old men, I have no doubt that the idea of sailing a boat that can bite you is more than many people are comfortable with.

The very fact that you would ask: "Wonder what happens when the hydrofoils kicks in." tells me you have no idea how they work. It is not a button or shift lever that gets moved, it is a progressive force that is related to speed just as most sailing forces are. It is no small wonder you are afraid, most people have a fear of the unknown.

 

This is the second time you have said you don't want to join in the topic.

So why are you here if it is not to debate the wonderful creations that only money can buy and only the pro will sail.

To me this is a fantastic development. Sure if it, when it, crashes the results will end in tears.

but hey fella, here for a good time not a long time.

life is tooooo short to drink cheap beer.

Russell has found himself a guy with some large coin and is helping him spend it. whawhoo, can't wait! bring it on.

 

About the hydrofoil part

I respect your opinion in this, but it's just not my style to be that edgy.
Do not forget you with your highly dangerous speedboat takes the responsibilty for only yourself. These 60 x 60 tri's are manned by who knows how many highly professional yachtsman.

About the hydrofoil part. Perhaps I was mistaken but what do you think those curved daggerboards are? And with 'when they kick in' I mean ; When you lower them at the right speed and adjust the backward angle so much they provide the lift needed for hydrofoils.

We are in boat design.net isn't it? This is more like a sailing anarchy answer

 

Do not forget how many people watch these events

In formula one once there almost crashed a guy named Nicky Lauda. Everyone was so horrified with the result all the circuits where equiped with pebble bunkers. Formula 1 is mature just like oil industry.

Rule number one:

Safety first.

In high wave surfing a guy named Foo died. Proffesional Big wave surfer.
What do you think will happen when Hamilton dies? Correct yes. They 'll put fences around the major surfspots because it's simply to dangerous.

I can discuss mountaineering with you as well. How do you think about what happens on K2 where on one day 20 people died or something. A privilege for the happy few to commit suicide?

And you are right..

I will not join this discusion anymore. And that's period.:idea:

 

Your statements sounded like SA posts, so the reply was in kind.

The point is that almost everything humans do has some risk. No one is forcing these crew to sail, they are all adult and make their own choices. Who are you to say what they can and cannot do?

The BOR90 is in no danger of hurting or killing anyone unless it's design envelope is exceeded. It is no diiferent than an airplane or the family car. If the pilot or driver operates the vehicle in an unsafe manner, it is not the vehicle's fault. If the sailors push these boats as fast as they will go, they are taking greater risk than if they sail them only as fast as they can safely.

 

From flickr(sa) (click on picture)-absolutely awe inspiring:

 

These profile pics from SA are not that big of a deal. Ask Randy Reynolds if it's possible to put a really tall rig on a boat. Then ask him waht happens when you do. The really telling comparison will be in the overall beam illustration which, apparently, has not been ginned-up by anyone to this point.

Secondly, the BOR boat is a flat-out dedicated racer that will probably be used in a predictably reasonable wind and sea state. The other boats are designed for around the world efforts (save the ORMA 60 which are barely safe on the open sea)

There's a huge difference in going flat-out in fairly composed environments and having to deal with the seas and winds of the Southern Ocean.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if BOR 90 was not over-canvassed in comparison to the others. If you are a car guy, think F1 vs Paris/Dakar (or Lisbon/Dakar, if you looked at the 2008 race). They are just completely different animals that just happen to have some similar features.

 

The BOR90 has 105 ft amas and a 90ft beam. So not unlike an ORMA Tri.

The ORMA rule limits masts to 32m or 105 ft IIRC, so a 60 has a Mast/Length ratio of 1.75 or so. The same ratio for 105 ft LOA gives 184 ft mast, If you use the 90ft LWL you get 157 ft.

The BOR90 has a 165ft (50m) stick in it now ... so not very radical at all.

Big question for me is displacement. The ORMAs start reefing at 13 True, and have a staysail up at 15 true ... above that they are slowing the boat down due to sea state.

I've attached both comparisons, the BOR90 to the Maxi Ocean Multis and The BOR90 to other inshore designs.

So far, all the numbers seem reasonable (in context).

 

Looking at the photos of the boat bow-on the rig doesn't look very big. The extreme beam helps fool the eye. In reality there is probably plently of rig there, and no doubt there is a bigger rig waiting in the wings (remember the '88 S&S rigs grew considerably during development).

If the boat is as light as people are saying the accelerations are going to be madness. Rounding the weather mark in 18 knots of breeze will be interesting, to say the least.

The traveller will probably need the same kind of grinding effort as tacking an AC monohull. Someone is going to have to be alert on that trav, getting wraps off the drum for the quick ease without losing control, then getting wraps back on so the grinders can sweat the boom back up. I wonder if the short throw hydraulics will save disaster.

I wonder about the human factors of sailing these things. How to you even flake/roll the mainsail after sailing? The sheer weight of the sail must make dealing with it nearly impossible. Sailing the Vx40s is proving to be a chore for the pros, this is going to be so much more.

Even though I think this will not be great match racing I can't wait to see two of these things approach the line from opposite ends and go into a match racing start. With the acceleration factors things could get very dangerous.

 

Here is something that has been bothering me:

The mast cants.

The traveller plane and the plane the boom swings through are only parallel when the mast is on centre and vertical.

With rake and 12 deg cant the mainsheet tension changes with traveller position, and it changes the wrong way ... the sheet tension *increases* as the traveller is dropped. Given the high mainsheet tensions multis seem to need, I would thing that the traveller won't move at all unless the sheet is also eased ...

That sounds very scary to me. The sheet, traveller, cant controls almost have to be integrated or it is going to take some very clever crew work to keep the boat on her feet.

 

Marc Lombard's critique

Marc Lombard offers a critique of the OBMW tri;
"My first impression was that of a total lack of imagination, the project, as I expected is nothing other than a super Orma. Taking over our curved foils and the pivoting mast… that’s already on all the Orma trimarans. This project does not hold any surprise, except for the accumulation of extreme factors."

http://www.bymnews.com/america's-cup-33/marc-lombard-english.php

BYM News:
This boat is square, like an ORMA trimaran. Can you explain the advantages and disadvantages?
ML: The last Ormas that were built, after a period of ‘maximum squareness ‘, were a bit narrower than square, this was a positive evolution, even if the vehicle bears the consequences, the longitudinal stability is limited lengthwise and by the dynamic vertical pressure of the foils, the result is that Oracle is at risk of pitchpoling really quickly and it will require a very reactive crew.

It seems that the height of the smallest mast is about 55 metres and the sail area enormous; maybe 40% more than Groupama 3 and even compared to Banque Populaire V. Can you explain the effect - advantages/disadvantages.
ML: The yacht will certainly lift the central pod as of 10kts true, which will make it certainly a quick yacht in little wind, but risks making it extremely sensitive when powered up in instable winds. Anyway, an "America Cup" crew should be capable of managing these conditions.

There are rumours that the boat only weighs between 7 and 9 tons. Do you think that is possible, or desirable?
ML: I think the yacht is heavier than 9 ton "all up", the main reason being that one can not design a yacht outside the maximum static loads. As in the Orma days, the culture of disinformation and wrong data continues.

The problem is that the media are hungry for data, even wrong data. The teams too preach disinformation, but that’s part of the game; the "america" battle is first and foremost a psychological battle.

It seems to us that this boat has been built for light airs and a relatively flat sea. If you agree, can you point out the dangers if the conditions get stronger?
ML: In 20 of knots wind it’s clear that the yacht, with its minimal freeboard, will not be easy to manage efficiently. In fact, a yacht with less sail will, doubtlessly, be quicker and more reliable in 20 knots.

Maybe they are considering limiting the matches to 12/15 knots true, that wouldn't embellish the reputation of the cup; the recent reputation of ‘lake yacht’racing wouldn’t change.

Whatever the reason, a capsize during the trials or during first racing won’t do much for the multihull concept. This is a pity since these are extraordinary sailing machines, the most exciting in existence.

The mast is canting, once again tell us the advantages and disadvantages ?
ML: The advantage is a sure gain of performance, because the windpressure remains horizontal and avoids the need for a bigger displacement. The drawback is in the manoeuverability, the mast movement takes at least a couple of seconds and in a match race this will have a limiting impact on tactics.

Have you any idea how many people will be needed in the crew?
ML: I think a crew of at least 20 people will be needed to manoeuvre this machine correctly.

One doesn't know what sort of boat Alinghi is building, but maybe its a hybrid like the famous Le Black. If that's the case, which boat would be likely to win in differing weather conditions?
ML: If you are talking about a cat scaled like the 41 foot, it’s certain that a tri like Oracle will be quicker because its wind pressure displacement ratio will always be superior. If a cat were to attain the same performances it would be in very precise wind conditions, because with hulls on the water (little wind) the risk is that the higher wetted area limits the potential and the evolutionary possibilities. In sustained wind the lack of power would be crippling, because when the crew weight is on the lateral net it's not easy to remain tactically alert.

It seem to me that a slightly less beamy tri, with less sail and ballastable in stronger winds, would be a better alternative. I also strongly fear there might not even be a race, because of an unplanned premature pitchpole.

But after all, it’s open to the millionaires to indulge themselves in one more fantasy, it’s in the purest of cup traditions .......

 

it’s in the purest of cup traditions .......

I have had hundreds discussions over this topic. You are not going to tell me we will miss the great matches as in AC 32 in valencia with the AC cupppers and the 12 teams that everybody knows by name, owner and skipper and steering mates? The magificent tactics?