3D models for naval architecture calculations

Discussion in 'Software' started by TANSL, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Current technology (software ) allows, once built a 3D model of the ship, easily perform the most complex calculations of naval architecture. The software does it all. Quite another thing is when the software tell us the existence of a problem . In this case , if the user has no certain knowledge, it will be very difficult for him to make a valid project .
    The reality is that many of the designers , we rely on the quality of the model we are able to build. And this is where , at present , there are more serious problems as to make an "ACCURATE" model is not easy and many of the programs do not care this aspect enough. The naval architect needs to be a good modeler and this ability is not available to everyone .
    Aware of this , we have developed an application that based on the body plan lines , lifelong , in 2D , creates the surfaces or solids necessary for the calculations , with absolute precision and respect for the body plan. The model thus created can be exported in dxf format , iges , etc to any other application.
    Use following link to see a video with more details : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqaOoMsKaak
    Thanks for your interest.
    I am at your disposal for any questions
     
  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Interesting, but on a largely English web site, not as informative as it could have been with non english text.
     
  3. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    It looks really good, Ignacio. I am impressed by how you have managed to create a correct blending of the sternpost and the hull plating. It is not a trivial task to do even with specialistic 3D software. Looks very promising.

    Cheers
     
  4. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Thank you both for the comments.
    Rwatson , have not taken into account if the texts are in English or not because what matters is not the word (you know that English is not the best of my knowledge), but what the application does.
    The main problem I want to solve is the difficulty we all have to create a correct model for our calculations . I always try to clearly differentiate what is a "pretty" model (which may be easier to do, as the skills of the artist) and "correct" model of the ship that we are calculating . "Nice" model to me as calculator, I do not care , it's more , it can lead to incorrect calculations .
    Daiquiri, when you analyze in depth a CAD program, you realize the amount of possibilities that a good program puts at your fingertips . We all know , or guess, a CAD program, has many more possibilities than appear at first glance. That´s why it is called CAD program and not drawing program. The video is a demonstration of this.
    (I have to confess that the forms of the example used, were the most suitable for a surprising result.)
     
  5. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    This is the opinion of 90% of software developers. They are so involved in the 'magic' of their applications that they spend little time explaining it to mere 'users'.

    Its apparent in lots of small time developers work - from Freeship, Delftship for example.

    Its a lesson that has to be relearnt over and over again by software entrepreneurs - a few hours spent to produce detailed explanation of the software, than weeks of clever coding.

    3 minute 'video' demonstrations do not automatically reveal the hidden wonders of software.
     
  6. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    rwatson, you do not know to what extent I agree with what you say. So I offered to give further explanation to that request. I know that if anyone is interested, should give many other explanation is that they do not need to read.
    As a developer I intend to be, I can assure you that any application that claims to be important, it has much, much more work in their help files than in the actual application or calculation subroutines.
    In general, any application calculates well enough. That's not the point that will differentiate from the competition. The speed in the calculations is no longer a differentiator, neither memory used. But the customer service, friendly user interface, quick response to user questions, all these other points that can be tilt the balance towards an application or another.
    Anyway, in this thread I did not intend to sell my application and, therefore, have not spoken of the User Manual or the various tutorials, video and text, I have available for you. What I wanted at this point is to show that some of us are interested in the designer not waste time on little creative work, that has all his time to design, create, without relying too completely closed programs, which distort the to be the main activity of the designer.
    I always wanted to avoid the "tragedy" that my project is not good enough because I'm not able to make a proper 3D model. On the other hand, I do not like someone, that does very nice 3D models to impersonate as "boat designer".
    What I wanted to say is this: designers from around the world, you get busy creating things and studying new concepts; the drawing in both 2D and 3D, I get it done automatically.

    (It is not easy to express these ideas. Rwatson So again, I ask you to forgive my awkwardness with English. Analyze more, if you can, what I mean, not how I say it)
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Its good that you also understand the work in preparing learning materials.

    I hope someone got some interesting information from the post.

    Maybe, one day you will get the time to explain it to the 'uninitiated'.

    All the best in your endeavours.
     
  8. quequen
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    quequen Senior Member

    Tansl, impressive video, but I think I don't get it: your lofting tool applies over a previously created set of polylines representing waterlines? If so, its a useful tool for retro-engeneering published linesplans, but you first must to draw by hand that set of polylines (or I'm wrong and the software works together with a scanner and can digitize polylines automatically?).
    What I mean is that it seems to be a survey or reconstruction tool, more than a creation one.

    On the other hand, if you already have a finished 3D hull shape and can export it to other 3D formats and also to a conventional linesplan, why rebuild it by lofting?
     
  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    quequen, you're right in most of what you say. The application is what it is and nothing else. In the third paragraph of the initial post I say that, from a body lines plan, in 2D, my application creates a three dimensional model of the ship. If that serves someone, he now knows that the tool he was looking for is there.
    It is not scanning an old plane. The designer who can draw 2D shapes, and have difficulty creating the 3D model used by modern applications, now have solved the problem:
    1st -. Draws the lines plan as it has always been done using AutoCAD as a drawing tool (sorry, but this is the tool, and not something that I chose.), and using many tools that my application offers.
    2 -. Presses a button and within 5 seconds he gets a very good model of his boat.
    3 -. Use other modules of my application, or any other program from competitors, for naval architecture calculations.
    This is what you get, nothing else.
    I also use other programs to my calculations and I've never done a project if it did not have a previous forms. I've never been able to directly generate the surfaces of my hull without a prior lines. Yes I could make surfaces very similar to what I wanted, but not what I wanted, unless I devote countless hours to adjust control points, fit points, markers, etc.. All this using countless "tricks" to simulate knuckles, transom, etc..
    Speaking of existing vessels to be reformed, or ships that have to be built from an existing mold, etc. my application acquires invaluable. Reverse engineering is not well resolved with other applications.
    That's what my app does and what it's for, but not good for anything else.
    I will be happy, not to bore other readers, to give more explanations to anyone who needs them through my e.mail
    Thanks
     
  10. quequen
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    quequen Senior Member

    Not boring at all! Explanations given here may be useful for many others

    -
     
  11. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Okay, I'll be happy to answer any question and explain my procedures, if anyone is curious about them.
    Rwatson, Thanks.
     
  12. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    I'm interested in how you create the surface. Does it require each waterline to be a simple curve or can a waterline have two curves such as a sailboat with a keel and a skeg?
     
  13. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    The model in the video is a solid. You can also make a surface model similar to the one in the video.
    Each water line consists of several curves, which have gone to form one single entity. You can join lines, polylines, splines, ..., almost any curve. It just takes that all are in the same plane. Working with AutoCAD the solid model allows to calculate all the physical properties of the model and is suitable for naval architecture calculations, while a surface model does not allow these calculations. However, to develop plates, the surfaces are more suitable.
    The "loft" command creates an entity between two contiguous water lines and these entities are joined together to form a single object: the 3D model.
     
  14. JotM
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    JotM Junior Member

    I don't think I quite understand what you're trying to say about DelftShip here.

    Are you missing a manual, like the one that can be downloaded from http://www.delftship.net/delftship/index.php/downloads/documentation, or is the manual too condensed for you?

    Or would you rather see tutorials like on http://www.delftship.net/delftship/index.php/downloads/tutorials?

    Or would you even prefer direct support from the developer through some kind of forum, like http://www.delftship.net/delftship/index.php/forum/hull-modeling?
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    OK - more info


    The Manual -


    The 'manual' is a sparse 73 page effort, written in non-uniform style with lots of detail missing. I started doing a detailed analysis of the missing data, anomalies etc, then realized, that for anyone that considered the manual to be adequate - it would all be lost in translation. Anyone who read it with understanding, it would be obvious.

    The problem is that the manual is written by a subject expert. The writer and/or subject matter expert should never be the person to write the beginners or operators manual. The manuals should be written by experienced documenters, then tested on many new users.


    Just a couple of 'off the cuff' examples -

    When a 'manual' still has spelling mistakes
    "The first line contains the number of watewrlines" - you know there hasn't been a lot of effort put into the publication.


    The manual is swimming with confusing terms, without explanation, commonly created by a non-english speaking writer :-

    Just one example of hundreds -

    "The seventh line indicates whether data describing the flat of bottom at each station is present (1) or not (0)"
    ( what is 'flat of bottom' ? )

    'flat of bottom is' - its not a term in common English usage, its not a common naval term ( try Googling it ), if it is a concept in Delftship - it needs proper explanation, but there is not another reference to it in the manual.

    I can guess that it has something to do with boats with sections of flat bottoms, but how the numbers are affected by it will require a lot of experimentation with models. A more concise and meaningful definition, and a few more words of explanation would save me hours of frustration.




    The order of topics :-
    Why would the technique of 'Selection of Objects' be included as the final, separate chapter ? It should be included in 'Edit Options' at the beginning of the manual where a new user is trying to get something created.

    Both those topics should be included in a section called 'Creating a Project' with step by step examples' - oh - no such section !

    These days, when paper is electronic - publication costs are minimal, so why the lack of quality documentation ?

    Why would you then expect a subscriber to go to the website looking for step by step tutorials ? Why wouldn't it already be in the 'User Manual' ???




    Online Forums and Online Tutorials
    ( the options that you need to put a lot of effort into if the manual is poor)

    1) Why is the manual the same after two years ? - hasn't there been some common questions that show areas that can be improved in the manual ?

    2) Online resources will only work if you are connected to the internet, and can log in. ( see 'My Personal Experience' later in the manual )



    I downloaded the one and only tutorial 'tutorial01.pdf' from the website.

    DELFTship tutorial – Using background images

    "This tutorial is a step-by-step guide showing how to recreate a linesplan using scanned background images as a reference. During this tutorial also a lot of the basics will be covered, such as inserting new points and edges, assigning control curves, fairing control curves, assigning faces to layers etc."


    Why isn't it part of the Manual ???

    Then, where are the equivalents for 'DELFTship tutorial – Creating Models from Scratch' and a whole lot other important topics. ?



    My personal experience.

    I looked up my emails, and the last correspondence to Delftship was a begging - 'Still cant Log In ..' in December 2012

    - no reply


    The first email got a response OK -
    "Dear mr. Watson,

    I've checked your account and it turned out it wasn't activated yet. ...."

    This was after I actually paid money to register the product, and got acknowledgment of my registration.



    On the plus side - Today, I successfully registered my password, logged in to the web site and did several test downloads today - so the website has improved in two years.

    As a result, I might find the enthusiasm to put a bit more time in to Delftship again soon, wading through Forum topics, trying to find relevant discussions ......

    On the downside however, ZERO extra effort has been put into the manual over the two years - it is exactly the same as before. So, they will need to be increasing their online support to cover the confusion that future new subscribers will experience.
     
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