3-d animation of new French landing craft cat.

[daiquiri]

Ummm.... that wasn't an insult. He was saying that he believes they know what they're doing.

Precisely, Troy. Vessels like this one are a result of careful analysis of the most probable operative situations in which assault troops could get involved, and what is needed to get the job done. I believe that French military has enough wartime experience to know very well what they need, certainly better than any internet general and admiral.

On the other side, it is also true that we are here to discuss and exchange opinions about this vessel, so it's legitimate to express one's disagreement with certain design choices, of course. It's just that it would be better to avoid accusing an entire and well-respected military of being incompetent or out of touch with times.

Real life is not a video game. Drones and high-tech do help, but they do not win wars. Men on the ground win wars. In the eyes of this military layman, recent examples of Georgia, Afganistan, Iraq and Mali have shown it very clearly.

So, what I propose - let's talk about technical aspects of this vessel, rather than about French military doctrine and strategy.

Cheers

 

[Stumble]

First,

To everyone who served, my appreciation. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, just point out that having performed combat beach landings in LCAC's and in traditional landing craft I have a unique perspective on modern landing operations.


Secondly,

I doubt that the operational cost of a large hovercraft are really that high compared to say the operational cost of a helicopter.


Third,

Current landing strategy really looks a lot like it did during WWII. There are only so many ways to get a significant number of people from a ship to shore unless you already control a harbor. You need to offload enough equipment and personel to hold the beachhead until the second wave of troops arrives. This is why high speed is so critical. The faster the transports can get back with a second load of troops the shorter period of time you have to hold the beach. Remember the enemy size will stay roughly the same size throughout the operation, but that second wave of troops doubles the effective size of the attackers forces.

And yes air support is helpful, and helicopters, and jets are great, but there is a reason they are classed as close air SUPPORT. It is the infantry and armor divisions that take and hold land, the air units can only help them, not so it for them.


And yes I am a US Marine. Originally in infantry, then a Forward Observer, then after being injured I got switched to being an instructor at a regimental training center specializing in infantry tactics (specifically beach assaults and urban warfare).

 

[tom28571]

And yes air support is helpful, and helicopters, and jets are great, but there is a reason they are classed as close air SUPPORT. It is the infantry and armor divisions that take and hold land, the air units can only help them, not so it for them..

We are continually relearning this (or sometimes not relearning it). Viet Nam was a glaring example of reliance on technology and outposts instead of taking and holding the territory. That does not address the question of whether we should have been there at all. Much of Afghanistan seems to be caught in the same pattern. To win a war most often requires a full commitment of effort and resources, which our political system has lost the will for. Therefore we are forced to continually be putting out fires instead of making our society a better one.

 

[Paul Farley]

We are continually relearning this (or sometimes not relearning it). Viet Nam was a glaring example of reliance on technology and outposts instead of taking and holding the territory. That does not address the question of whether we should have been there at all. Much of Afghanistan seems to be caught in the same pattern. To win a war most often requires a full commitment of effort and resources, which our political system has lost the will for. Therefore we are forced to continually be putting out fires instead of making our society a better one.

Yes indeed!
Paulf

 

[kerosene]

Ummm.... that wasn't an insult. He was saying that he believes they know what they're doing.

I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

 

[Adler]

An old design looks familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOkrXimRnSc

The French design has much lower speed and impact strike to protect the landing operation
but much less Maintenance cost and of course could be transferred from
"mother" landing ship.

 

[Number4]

As this thread has been succesfuly hijacked.
I thought I would post this
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/01/the-conflict-in-mali/100446/
Some interesting photos of the "cheese eating surrender monkeys" displaying their woefully behind the times military thinking and deplorable equipment.
You would have thought that after 200 years of operations against the Islamic Jihad in North Africa, they would have got the hang of it by now.
If you look closely, you can see some former colleagues of mine.

 

[tom28571]

Number 4,

If you are thinking that the content of these threads can be managed to keep responses in some narrow window, you are kidding yourself. Never has and never will. On the other hand, the design of a landing craft cannot be realistically considered without discussing the environment which it is to operate. Since the information on the vehicle in question was scanty, that part of the discussion ran out of steam quickly and people took to the mike to have their say on related subjects.

Not going to change. People are people.

 

[Number4]

Number 4,

If you are thinking that the content of these threads can be managed to keep responses in some narrow window, you are kidding yourself. Never has and never will. On the other hand, the design of a landing craft cannot be realistically considered without discussing the environment which it is to operate. Since the information on the vehicle in question was scanty, that part of the discussion ran out of steam quickly and people took to the mike to have their say on related subjects.

Not going to change. People are people.

Cheers Tom,
I'm not really bothered. I am ex Army, and we spent a large amount of time taking the piss out of the Navy and Marines ourselves. It's just that this is boatdesign.net and just as soon as we were starting to discuss the design, the resident expert decided that it is crap and the whole idea pointless. I honestly thought the experts would be getting a little hard over it's variable froude number. Then I find out that that the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, are all clueless, and that we should be running a robot army instead just like America.
I am proud to have served in both the British and French armies, and it just makes me bite a little when we are accused of incompetence by people who are not really understanding the situation.
Your posts so far make the most sense, and I would be fascinated to hear more of your experiences.
I made the last post to show that the frogs are actualy very good.

I think the L-CAT / EDA-R is a great boat, and if for what ever reason giant hovercraft are not used, it is the next best thing
Best Wishes,
Adam

 

[tom28571]

Adam, Probably we are all here for somewhat different reasons. Some to learn, some to impart knowledge, some to demonstrate their expertise and some because they have nothing better to take up their time. It all serves a useful purpose to someone. I've been taken to task by a couple people who considered my approach to a problem below their pay grade. No matter. We on the forum mostly exist in a state of quasi civility and most just roll with the occasional low punch. None of us, especially me, has enough time left on earth to waste much of it worrying about the small stuff.

 

[Luc Vernet]

It does NOT TRANSFORM into a shallow water craft. It will bulldoze up a sandy beach and that is about it.

Maybe you should look at the video a second time, and try to understand?

 

[Number4]

Maybe you should look at the video a second time, and try to understand?

Bonjour Luc,
It is very strange, is it not?
He is claiming it is not a landing craft, that it needs 14 feet of water, can only operate out of a port, and will not carry the advertised load.
Yet in this video you can clearly see an EDA-R sitting on a beach deploying 6 VAB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzS94MXBpjEsix

EDA-R on Operation Bold Alligator with USMC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amp23FnAWH4

 

[kach22i]

I like the design of the landing craft in question very much.

It is similar to a design I sketched up last summer.

My goal was a small trailerable SES, which then I changed to a catamaran houseboat to keep it simple.

I examined the raising and lower of the deck for rough water and on-plane performance reasons, the shallow water aspect for bass fishing was also a consideration for inland lakes.

They have a winner in my opinion, and I'm also a big hovercraft fan.

I was just about to build a scale model of the craft when my interest went astray. My memories came back to me while constructing an acoustic device for my home stereo.

Link to project: Fireplace acoustic absorber for enhancement of the center stage
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-absorber-for-enhancement-of-the-center-stage

Without all the holes, this could be one of the hulls. It's very easy to build, just needs some glass and resin on it.

 

[Luc Vernet]

Bonjour Luc,
It is very strange, is it not?

Not THAT strange: this otherwise fantastic website is more and more hi-jacked by jobless plywood dinghy "Naval Architects" pundits who reply to every single post and are experts on every single field! Never mind: les chiens aboient, la caravane passe"...

But what annoys me is this American fashion mockery of the French Armies, while none but a very few of those Internet armchair admirals have even showed able to understand how this craft functioned, but it suffices for them to read that it is French to start giggling like idiots. Specially saddening when it comes from people whose countries (there is more than one) has behaved in the most despicable way during the last big conflicts. They will know themselves who I am talking about!

 

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

Let's please try and keep the forums here polite to one another and take further jabs or insults to some other site.

Here is a list of other forums where heated political arguments and debates would be welcome:
https://www.google.com/search?q=politics+forum