1950's 16ft Petrel

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Burkie, May 29, 2010.

  1. Burkie
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Ireland

    Burkie Junior Member

    Hi ,
    I'm in Dungarvan ,County Waterford Ireland,We sail a 16ft dinghy here called a Petrel,it was a design in an amateur boat building magazine in the late fifties.
    The Petrel is not only unique to Dungarvan and not in anywhere else in Ireland ,but also to Europe.
    we had a fleet of 50 Petrels sailing in Dungarvan Bay at one stage,I'm wondering has anyone come across one in your neighbourhood,if so I'd love to hear.

    Regards

    Eugene
     
  2. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,013
    Likes: 207, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Way back in time, I had a friend who owned a Petrel. A lovely little boat. I believe it was, or at least claimed to be, a Fox or perhaps Proctor design. I have not seen a Petrel in many years. The design just did not take off here in the states.
     
  3. Burkie
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Ireland

    Burkie Junior Member

    Hi Messabout,I received your post on my other link,thanks.
    I had googled the designer to no avail.
    I have searched Uffa Fox's & Ian Proctors design history,but no mention of Petrels.
    I was told that alot of boat plans were incorporated into amateur magazines in the US by plywood manufacturers to encourage sales of their product,I'm not sure of the veracity of this. But Popeye was a product of spinach suppliers so ,one never knows !!!
    They are a great little sailboat,very forgiving ,but a good performer in the right hands and can really take off in strong winds.
    I'll try to post a pic of our ones
     
  4. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,013
    Likes: 207, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Burkie; I may very well have my birds confused. My friend had a Kestrel, not a Petrel. Thus the Fox/Proctor possibility. Sorry about the misleading post. I think that I have been around too many boats to keep them all properly categorized.
     
  5. Burkie
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Ireland

    Burkie Junior Member

    No Problem Messabout,some of my buddies get so confused with boats that they end up going into the wrong one !!!;)
     
  6. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,013
    Likes: 207, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    I've gotten in to the wrong boat a time or two. Perhaps the result of having previously enjoyed too much good Irish whiskey.

    Post some pictures of the Petrel. Some of the viewers may recognize it as a boat they once knew.
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,629
    Likes: 307, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Attached Files:

  8. locksafe
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: polokwane, south africa

    locksafe Junior Member

    Petrel Sailboat

    Petrel 16 ft Sailboat
    Hi Burkie .
    This thread is a bit old but i am going to try anyway -
    Nice to hear from someone that actually sailed the Petrel Sailboat.
    As far as i know the Petrel 16ft was designed by a gentleman called
    William D. Jackson - a Naval Architect from the U.S.A . He designed a lot of Boats for both Sail and Power and worked as a Naval Architecht for the US Navy during the 2nd World War . He was also a Boat builder and built most of his Designs himself. His designs was almost always aimed at the home handyman and was therefor simplified so that the ordinary man could build himself a boat in his Backyard.
    I want to build a Petrel for myself and therefor would like to know how the Petrel sails compared to a similar boat like a Wayfarer (Another excellent boat but no Plans available) if one has changed the Center board like you suggested ?
    I am sure that the Petrel could be built in the stitch and glue manner wich would result in a much lighter boat especially if one uses 6mm ply Coated with fibreglass instead of the 9 mm ply specified by the designer.
    do you have the Wayfarer center board specs or sizes available to you ?
    I would really like to hear more from you regarding the Petrel and the Modifications that you guys there at your club has done over the years of actually sailing and using the boat .
    I would also like to look at a Balanced Lug rig or Standing Lug rig with jib for the Petrel for dinghy cruising .
    I am from South Africa and would highly appreciate it if you could share your obvious wealth of information about the Petrel with us here on the forum .
    thanks and fair winds
    Hannes
     
  9. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,270
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 271
    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    You could try this link for the Wayfarer. AFAIK both Hartley and Porter still build Wayfarers. The plans belong to the estate of the late Ian Proctor, whom you could try and approach.
    The Holt designed Mirror 16 is a better boat IMHO but again the plans have been 'lost' which is a shame as most Holt designs are available. There is a thread on this Forum in the Wooden boat building section, where I believe someone has created soem CAD drawings for it. Also I would not ignore more modern boats (although glass) like the Laser Stratos (Morrison), now no longer made but has a ballasted keel option. It also can be reefed quite a bit.
     
  10. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,270
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 271
    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    You could try this link for the Wayfarer. AFAIK both Hartley and Porter still build Wayfarers. The plans belong to the estate of the late Ian Proctor, whom you could try and approach.

    http://wayfarer.org.uk/

    The Holt designed Mirror 16 is a better boat IMHO but again the plans have been 'lost' which is a shame as most Holt designs are available. There is a thread on this Forum in the Wooden boat building section, where I believe someone has created soem CAD drawings for it. Also I would not ignore more modern boats (although glass) like the Laser Stratos (Morrison), now no longer made but has a ballasted keel option. It also can be reefed quite a bit.
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 473, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The Petrel is a pretty wholesome little cruiser and can't hold a candle to a Wayfarer. There are several boats called a Petrel, including a few production versions, so maybe some refinement of the actual design is in order. The open cockpit versions of this design, do fair a little better (compaired to the cabin version), if the wind is up a bit, but it's still a full plank on frame design, with questionable appendages and rig proportions.

    There are lots of boats that offer all the things of a Petrel, but also better performance, accommodations, modern building methods and materials, etc.

    If you're bent on a Petrel, then the magizine published plans are available here:
    > http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/Petrel <

    These plans are pretty light on a lot of stuff and not much detail. Also, materials and hardware will need to be upgraded to what's available today. Personally if looking to build a small cruiser like this, there are hundreds of more modern designs that will sail circles around a Petrel and be simpler to build too. As to changes on this design, well the 1/4" steel plate centerboard and 3/4" plywood rudder need both different plan forms and sectional considerations, aside from the material choices. I'd also consider slightly more sail area hijacked from a modern one off and lastly converting this puppy, from a plank on frame to a full up taped seam build. This would lighten the boat a lot and decrease the parts in the boat, by a whole lot.
     
  12. locksafe
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: polokwane, south africa

    locksafe Junior Member

    Petrel Sailboat

    Hi Par, thanks for the reply
    I know there might be more modern designs out there , but more modern doesn't always mean better in my opinion. The Wayfarer is a case in point - there may be faster more modern boats of the same size but are they really more seaworthy and as safe ? Wayfarer plans (also plank on frame) are most probably the most sought after of all small sailboat plans and for good reason.(it isn't only because it is not available to the public). Most small boat designers nowadays take a flat bottomed boat and add a few lapstrakes to the sides to give the impression of a round bottomed boat but Imho it is still a flat bottomed boat . Not better than the true round bottomed hull or even a good V bottom hull . More modern? of course - better? not in my opinion . Is stitch and glue the do all and end all of all small boat construction ? If one feels that you can rely on how well the outer layer of marine ply has been bonded to the rest of the plywood sheet - with the low quality of marine ply on the market nowadays - I will side with a guy like George Buehler that says that he trust most marine glues - as long as there is a screw or bolt through it.
    I think that a boat like the Petrel can be quite stunning if the Foil shapes (rudder and Centerboard are brought up to current Naca designs - In this regard a lot has has happened in boat design in the last couple of years and who better to talk to than a guy like yourself
    I know that V bottomed boats has fallen out if favour in the last few years - too much wetted surface and so on - but im my humble opinion and also in the eyes of Designers of note like the Atkins Bros, Maurice Griffiths and the like it is and remains the most seaworthy of hull shapes available on a small boat - especially a dinghy which relies on form stability to remain upright.
    By the way - regarding the dowel question i asked on the forum - I did a few tests on fastening plywood to a wood frame and also solid wood on wood - the method i always used was to use countersunk screws - not so wonderful to say the least - on softish plywood and soft wood the countersunk screw tends to pull the screw head through the plywood long before the thread part let go - in fact a ringshank of the same size is better - because of the flat head it doesn't pull through the plywood or wood before the shank part lets go and thus it takes more force to destruct. I would like to do some tests on dowels before i just dismiss the idea - obviously the dowel will need to be bigger than the screw for the same strength but lets do some tests - i may be enlightening - on one of the woodworking sites the test was done on solid wood - the dowels outperformed both screws and pocket hole screws.
    Thanks for all the guys that contribute to making this a great website for sharing their knowledge where the likes of me can learn from others
    Hannes(South Africa)
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 473, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Your impression of modern design is quite incorrect. I as well as many designers have several little cruisers to pocket rockets, that will spank a Wayfarer. Have a look at B&B yachts, Ross Lillistone's designs, Dudley Dix, even bateau.com or glen-l.com and you'll see boats the same size, with better everything. George Buehler's designs and opinions are antiquated and generally inappropriate for modern design. He's never designed anything modern and without exception his designs are slow, very heavy and not well regarded by the professionals in the industry. The Atkins, were not brothers, but father (Billy) and son (John). In fact I own the very last paid commision of John's. Their work is sound, though still stuck in the old school way of designing them (slide rule and T square, which is how I learned too).

    As far as "sea worthy", there are very few small craft that can be considered Category A or better. I have an 18' design that qualifies for Cat. A, but it's nothing like a Wayfarer or Petrel. Even finding a Cat. B craft (near shore) in 15' - 16' will be very difficult, mostly because you just don't have the volume to get what's necessary for this classification. Most all 15' - 16' sailors will be Cat. C (semi protected waters) or D (protected waters).

    Tests on fasteners need to be done carefully and with a level playing field. Coating a dowel with epoxy and testing it against a naked fastener, isn't a fair test. You're simply testing the epoxy's ability to grip the dowel and the substrate and you'll get the same results with an epoxy coated fastener, because the failure will be in the fibers along the glue line, proving nothing about the fastener's ability to hold onto a substrate. A ring shank is better than a bright, but not as good as a screw and both are better than a dowel, again simply because the dowel is limited by its relatively weak fiber strength (compaired to metal) and these will shear much sooner than metal.

    The tests you're looking for have been done (many times over) and guess what, you don't need fasteners (of any kind) if a design is properly worked through. I have designs that literally haven't a single fastener, other than bolts to hold down cleats and other hardware. Using this approuch, you can also eliminate frames, floors, stringers and other structural elements, which makes the boat lighter and you have 2/3's fewer pieces to buy, cut and install too. I just converted a 15' cat boat from its original lapped plank over rib design to a glued lap. The original design had a hull that weighed about 350 pounds, but my "modern" version came in just over 200. The result was I could ballast the centerboard with a hefty hunk of lead and dramatically improve it's stability and ability to stand up to a press. It's faster than any other in its class, but has the exact same lines and weight.

    Before coming to the grand conclusions, you seem to have picked up, possibly from George's (or others) book (written from his experiences in the 60's and 70's), you might want to step into the later half of the 20th century's technology, which includes cell phones, HD TV and boats that are half the weight and twice as fast as the tried and true classics we all love.
     
  14. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,270
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 271
    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    PAR's right about the difference between half decent and very good modern designs easily bettering most of the older designs from the 50s' and 60s'. You might be surprised how easily more modern stuff slips through the water and especially how smooth transition is offwind to planing. This is not just a decent set of foils. I would suggest that you may have a misguided view of V hulls, and their 'virtues', at least in sailing craft. It is much more rewarding to sail something that is pretty efficient, at least IMHO.

    Again I'm with PAR on the construction, the main place to use fasteners is in the highly loaded parts only. Things like thwarts or horse rails, which take full main sheet loads on gybing or other parts that can periodically take high local shock load. Personally on a light 15'er I would not be too fussed if the rudder fitings were screwed to the transom and not bolted through, whereas on a heavy one it would be different. Once your in the 35-40Kn wind range you probably won't want to stay out there too long...but the gear MUST take it. TBH a decent CAT C boat could be a good choice. Again personal but trying to move a Wayfarer around on shore is PITA unless there are about three of you, just so so heavy.
     

  15. locksafe
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: polokwane, south africa

    locksafe Junior Member

    petrel sailboat

    Thanks for the great advice PAR - i agree with you about some of the things you've said - and yes there are a few modern designs out there like you said that are pretty good and well proven in some of the toughest races that you guys have there in the states- those that run for a few hundred miles over a couple of days - the Core Sound 17 comes to mind immediately , kicking just about everything's backside that is similar in size (and bigger too). I was just reading the very enthusiastic write up by a guy from the Small Craft Advisory Whatever about the Scamp - an 11 ft boat that weighs over 600 lb - the same as the Petrel 16 ft which is quite a lot more boat. He was raving about the solid feel of the boat and sounded like he was just waiting for the next Cat 5 Hurricane there in your area to go out and give it an even better workout. Better him than me but solid the little Scamp surely is. So that must be a very poor design in your eyes as well i suppose - even worse than the Petrel i suspect because it is even built a lot heavier than the Petrel. . There are very good designers that don't regard weight in a hull as bad. Suki Solo mentioned that he thought that the Mirror 16 was a better boat than the Wayfarer - Problem is , it was a very, very frail boat , clad only in 5 mm Plywood (to cut weight and be faster) and so frail that the people in the know recons that is why there are so few around today. Definitely not something i'll go out in around our Coastline here in S.A.
    On the subject of the Fasteners i've read all the supposed wisdom of the screw is better that a serrated nail which is better than a dowel stories but it seems that the folk who believe these things for the gospel don't do few tests themselves. I think you missed what i said about the heads of the fasteners - i wasn't talking about the screw shank pulling out of the wood - i said that the countersunk screw head pulls through the plywood you screw onto a piece of wood long before the shank part fails. in this regard the serrated nail is better because its head is flat underneath - it is as is the countersunk screw head is shaped to pull through or split the wood - do the test yourself and then talk about it. Also put 3 or 4 dowels into an half lap joint or frame joint with glue and maybe look for yourself what force you need to Shear of 3 or 4 dowels in a joint - do the same with screws and test it - i think the one of the purposes of a forum like this is to do a bit of thinking out of the box and bounce ideas off each other and to motivate us to try NEW things - not cling to old ideas of what we think is the right way to do things. Do the TEST and then talk about it.
    Thanks for everyone who participate in adding knowledge to us all
    Hannes
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.