Sailing Canoe Build-Novice needs help

Hey all, this question is for a fictional book I'm writing which makes this post mostly theoretical. Althouth the design here was something I worked on a few years ago and would of been my first venture into sail and hopefully will one day be a reality

The Goal is to build a canoe that will be fast on the water in order to sail upstream The Pear River ~320 miles to Jackson Mississippi w/ two people, there dog, and gear. (about 500 lbs when combine with the boat and sailing rig)
The mast needs to be both removable w/o too much effort to pass under low bridges and have a furling system.

So heres the design I came up with a few years ago w/ a few tweeks due to the resources available to the characters.

My first question is if I need to add more stays than the one to the front and if so how many. ie. one front and rear or one in all 4 directions. The less there are the easier the sail will be to take down. ( the plan is to furl both sails loosen the stays and pick the sail up and over the 3/4 pipe thats acting as a peg )

What size and shape of sails should I choose and should it have/ does it need a boom?
For the main sail I was thinking about 11.5 x 6 to 8 (~63-92 Sq ft) and the jib about 45-70 Sq ft. Ideally the sails are cut as large as possible (within reason) and can be furled to size to match the wind conditions.

Where should the leeboards be placed?



here's a description to go with the diagrams:
Based off a 16 foot canoe. I want to put the mast right behind the front seat. ~5ft from the front. Starting from the floor of the canoe is a thick base. attached to the top of the base is Galvanized flange for 3/4 pipe. A 2 to 4 foot piece of 3/4 pipe(1.05 OD) goes into the flange. This pipe acts as a peg that the mast slipps over. The mast is made of 1 3/8 galvanized top rail from a chain link fence. screwed in at the top side walls of the canoe(Level with the seat) are two 2x4s sandwiching the "front and back" of the mast. 2 more boards are used to sandwich the left and right sides making a square with just enough space for the mast to sit inside. A 1.5" pvc pipe is slide over the mast and rest ontop the 2x4s. This is to be able to furl and unfurl the sail. A 1/2 pvc pipe is slide over the Main stay in order to attach and furl the jib. Measuring from the side wall of the canoe the sail sit's between 2 and 2.5 ft and from the side wall to the top the mast is ~14ft

StuckForward1020 said:

The Goal is to build a canoe that will be fast on the water in order to sail upstream The Pear River ~320 miles to Jackson Mississippi w/ two people, there dog, and gear. (about 500 lbs when combine with the boat and sailing rig)

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For general information, see Open Canoe Sailing Group - for canoe sailors across the UK https://www.ocsg.org.uk/

StuckForward1020 said:

The mast needs to be both removable w/o too much effort to pass under low bridges and have a furling system.

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How essential is it that reefing must be by furling? Your story assumes that your characters have limited resources, and a simple way to get a sail with decent shape from a flat sheet of fabric is a Sunfish rig, or some other variant on the crab claw or Oceanic lateen. You could have slab reefing. The mast could be short enough that it can stay up, because much of the rig height comes from the yard, and that comes down when you drop the sail.

A jib on a say needs some tension on the stay to have decent shape, and that puts loads on a canoe hull for which it was not designed. Rigs with jibs on such boats, which includes folding kayaks, typically have very small jibs.

StuckForward1020 said:

My first question is if I need to add more stays than the one to the front and if so how many. ie. one front and rear or one in all 4 directions.

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If the mast can't stay up without stays, three is the normal number for small boats.

StuckForward1020 said:

Where should the leeboards be placed?

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Depends on the sail. If you have a single sail, then somewhat behind the mast. One method is to have a single leeboard with a string between the top of the board and the bottom of the hull, and swap it to the lee side each tack. That lets you adjust the longitudinal position. If you set up some structure to hold the leeboard, it might be made adjustable, and you can rake the leeboard(s) forward or aft as well.

StuckForward1020 said:

The mast is made of 1 3/8 galvanized top rail from a chain link fence.

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How heavy is that? Canoes are not very wide, and so not very tolerant to weight up top.

Thank you Robert! That was very helpful and I'll check out the link to learn more.

How essential is it that reefing must be by furling? Your story assumes that your characters have limited resources, and a simple way to get a sail with decent shape from a flat sheet of fabric is a Sunfish rig, or some other variant on the crab claw or Oceanic lateen. You could have slab reefing. The mast could be short enough that it can stay up, because much of the rig height comes from the yard, and that comes down when you drop the sail.

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It's not essential but just preferred. It's a dystopian setting where being able to quickly and simply change the profile of the boat w/ having as few things in the way as possible is important. ex. if they need to hide from someone quickly, stop the boat because someone fell out etc...

I got most of this design from this video on a kayak.
It's what I want but sometimes we can't have what we want.
If I use this design plus a boom on a flat sail what would I be sacrificing?

If it's too much I'll go with the other designs you suggested and make those work

Planning on using Tyvek for the sail material

A jib on a say needs some tension on the stay to have decent shape, and that puts loads on a canoe hull for which it was not designed. Rigs with jibs on such boats, which includes folding kayaks, typically have very small jibs.

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That's good to know. I'll keep it small then.
If the Jib is swapped for a spinnaker is it the same or are there any other concerns I should keep in mind that only apply to the spinnaker?

If the mast can't stay up without stays, three is the normal number for small boats.

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It can stand by itself so that's good

Depends on the sail. If you have a single sail, then somewhat behind the mast. One method is to have a single leeboard with a string between the top of the board and the bottom of the hull, and swap it to the lee side each tack. That lets you adjust the longitudinal position. If you set up some structure to hold the leeboard, it might be made adjustable, and you can rake the leeboard(s) forward or aft as well.

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I'm not sure if I'm understanding the method for the single leeboard. I Would pick up out the water each time and switch it to the other side?

How heavy is that? Canoes are not very wide, and so not very tolerant to weight up top.

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Using the 1 3/8 Fencing pipe the mast is 16.2lbs and with the pvc for furling is 23.3lbs

If I change it to 1" Electrical conduit and PVC it would weigh 16.5lbs altogether.
It would be a little weaker but I found a poster who uses this set up on a 15.5' mast with success

StuckForward1020 said:

It's a dystopian setting where being able to quickly and simply change the profile of the boat w/ having as few things in the way as possible is important. ex. if they need to hide from someone quickly

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If hiding includes taking the rig down completely, so that nothing sticks out above low bushes, then I advise against stays. They increase the time needed to take the rig down. I again suggest something like this:







Such a sail can be dropped in seconds. It takes less time to make than the rig shown in the video above (which is quite impressive). The sail can make a very quick shelter when camping, by leaning it against a rock or tree, or by laying it on the ground and pulling one spar over the camper. If the Tyvek is an inconspicuous colour, so much the better. The mast would be short and light enough to be quickly lifted out and laid in the boat.

If you want a nice shape on both port and starboard tack, then attach two lines where yard and boom meet. One goes to the mast and limits how far the tack of the sail can be from the mast. The other goes back to the cockpit. When tacking or after a gybe, pull on that line so that yard and boom can clear the mast and fall to lee. You could just use the first line, but then there is a greater risk of getting a hand caught between the mast and the other spars.

StuckForward1020 said:

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the method for the single leeboard. I Would pick up out the water each time and switch it to the other side?

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Yes. If one of the resource limits of your characters is not having much time to set up the boat, this may be quicker than setting up a bracket. But if they can find some right angle brackets from a builders' supplier which can be screwed to a beam attached to the gunwales, that might do the job.

StuckForward1020 said:

If I change it to 1" Electrical conduit and PVC it would weigh 16.5lbs altogether.

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I use a windsurfing mast, and have been advised to reinforce it, based on the adviser seeing a windsurf mast on a dinghy break just from the dinghy rolling in swell. I forgot to ask how deep the bury was, though. The rule of thumb is that it should be at least 10% of mast length, and a shallow dinghy hull may not offer that much. Then the mast would have to be reinforced from the foot to above the partners. Anyway, a 1" steel pipe would need very thick walls and be quite heavy to be as strong as a windsurf mast with a 56mm (2¼") diameter at the foot, tapering to 28mm (1⅛") at the top.

There is no hope of sailing a canoe, or anything else, up that river. You would have to paddle, and sometimes push/pull through the shallows.

The 16 foot cane will not take kindly to a sail as large as the one you have suggested. A canoe of that size will move along reasonably well with a simple rig such as the sprit sail from an Optimist pram. Too much sail, like 70 to 90 square feet will be be extremely difficult to manage, especially on a day with numerous shifts or on a day that has wind velocities more than 6 or 8 knots. River cruising also has surprises for sailing boats, especially sailing canoes.. The layout of the surrounding terrain, vegetation, and trees will cause some sudden gusts or shifts that will not be easy to deal with.

Use a deck level thwart with a hole for the mast and a pad on the floor that has a smaller hole for the round pin in the bottom of the mast. The whole rig can be installed and/or removed easily and quickly. You do not need a jib. Keep the rig small and as simple as possible.

Gonzo

There is no hope of sailing a canoe, or anything else, up that river. You would have to paddle, and sometimes push/pull through the shallows.

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I'd like to ask why but I'm not doubting you. If you're number of post on this forum is any indication you're quite the sailer. But would you mind telling me more about this.
The idea is to be able to reach 1 mph using the combined effort of the sail and paddling. According to what I researched last week the "average" river flow of the Mississippi is around 3mph. I couldn't find anything specific on the Pearl River, and took it for granted they'd be similar enough in flow speed for it to work.

Messabout

The 16 foot cane will not take kindly to a sail as large as the one you have suggested. A canoe of that size will move along reasonably well with a simple rig such as the sprit sail from an Optimist pram. Too much sail, like 70 to 90 square feet will be............

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I appreciate you're advice and if I'm understanding you correctly maybe you missed where I said "Ideally the sails are cut as large as possible (within reason) and can be furled to size to match the wind conditions." Now that was just the idea in my head, I have zero experience so I know it's also possible this isn't at all how things work in reality. And what you said about sudden gusts is a very good point

Use a deck level thwart with a hole for the mast and a pad on the floor that has a smaller hole for the round pin in the bottom of the mast.......

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Yes, this is essentially what I have designed

Robert

Such a sail can be dropped in seconds. It takes less time to make than the rig shown in the video above (which is quite impressive). The sail can make a very quick shelter when camping, by leaning it against a rock or tree, or by laying it on the ground and pulling one spar over the camper.......

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What you're saying makes a lot of sense. although I still like the other design better but that's not a good reason to choose it.

That said, the number two reason I'm not liking the sunfish rig is because it feels cumbersome. I imagine dropping it in an emergency and having all the sail to trip over.

Time constrains: They have 5 wks to build the sail. as far as resources go they could essential "find" anything you would find in a large hardware store. Steel's common but not aluminum tubing. No power tools or welding machines, just hand tools. and a sewing machine.

That all said: lets talk about sail design. In the Sunfish rig the sail is flat or at least can be without problems. On the furling rig it's not good to use a flat sheet of a material and needs to have a curvature.. In order to do this the flat sheet of material would be cut into curving strips between 1 and 3 ft. wide round abouts?(I'm completely guessing) and those are all sewn together. The multiple pieces, angles / math and sewing all the extra seems is what makes this sail much more complex and time consuming

I use a windsurfing mast, and have been advised to reinforce it, based on the adviser seeing a windsurf mast on a dinghy break just from the dinghy rolling in swell. I forgot to ask how deep the bury was, though. The rule of thumb is that it should be at least 10% of mast length, and a shallow dinghy hull may not offer that much..........

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Honestly 1" seems too small to me too. But according to this thread that's what they're using w/o problems but maybe I missed something. It's the second post from the top if you want to read it

pvc mast? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/pvc-mast.7118/

The reason it is impossible to sail upriver is that there is almost no wind between the river banks. Some small sections will have some wind. However, because the river meanders a lot, the course changes from North to West to South to East, and so on continously. I have done the whole Mississippi downriver, which is much wider, and gave up using sails. They were very small section that could be possible, but not worth the effort. Look at the river on Google maps and it will be obvious. Since it is a work of fiction, there is no need to offer technical details on the canoe. I think that a failure on many stories is to provide details that are not realistic. Is there a reason you need to specify the river and canoe design, or does the story works with someone sailing a canoe upriver with his dog?

The reason it is impossible to sail upriver is that there is almost no wind between the river banks. Some small sections will have some wind. However, because the river meanders a lot, the course changes from North to West to South to East, and so on continously. I have done the whole Mississippi downriver.......

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I had a feeling it would have to do with the wind, meandering of the river, and its width.

I don't need to be too specific about the design details as long as I can explain how/why they were able to accomplish what they did.
I need to be specific about the route, however. If I only say "they took a river north" instead of names it wouldn't fit with the character of the novel.
That said, after spending some time on google maps I've come up with two options.

#1. Sail from New Orleans to Tallahassee approximately 400 miles. Then walk 640 miles to Virgin.

#2 Sail from New Orleans to Mobile 140 Miles, from Mobile to Montgomery up the Alabama River 375 miles. Then walk 580 miles.

The protagonist is a young man traveling with his dog and two kids, 10 and 7 years old. So they only cover 5 miles a day while walking.
Option #2 would make a better story If I can claim they travel 8+ miles a day upriver w/o stretching reality too far.

In reality, if some could paddle at 1.5-2 mph for 8 hrs a day could they go up the Alabama when combined with the intermittent help of the sail?
If you tell me they could travel 0-4 miles a day I'll go w/ option #1.

It is entirely feasible to row a canoe rather than paddling. I once had an Old Town Sweet 16 that I rowed and found it both fun and effective for covering distances with less fatigue.

There are techniques for going upriver in a canoe that can make 10 miles a day feasible. They depend on the physical conditon of the person. When paddling, keeping close to shore and on the inside of the bends helps avoid the strongest current. If the water is shallow, pullin/pushing the canoe is more efficient than paddling. Fur traders would canoe for Canada to New Orleans and then go back.

Although on the Mississippi/Missouri, and with vastly different boats to what you propose, there's some great detail in this terrific historic resource on the techniques and difficulties of taking canoes up a big river. Lewis and Clark did carry sails on some of the variety of boats they used, but as Gonzo says, they were only of occasional use, particularly when the wind was astern:

The Boats - Discover Lewis & Clark https://lewis-clark.org/primary/the-boats/

The Dugout Canoes of Lewis and Clark - Discover Lewis & Clark https://lewis-clark.org/boats/dugouts-of-lewis-and-clark/