What Do We Think About Climate Change

[Jimbo1490]

Cheers.

P.S. Still waiting for some of the friends in the "warmers" front to comment my post on NOAA's Greenland temperature record for the last 5000 years. I'm wondering why no one has commented. May be it is of no interest for them but only to "coolers"? A bit of worrying about where a simple reasoning may bring us, perhaps....? Troy? dskira? wardd....?

And you won't hear from them either, Guillermo.

The warmers have consistently been more interested in 'tar and feathering' their detractors than actually addressing the merit of their arguments. I think they are secretly delighted at such salaciousness as it can be used to deflect incisive questions that they are unable to answer with any facts.

And in the end, scary "What If" scenarios are so much more interesting than a warming event that just appears to be a rather ordinary repetition of climatic history, so they would rather guide the discussion in that direction.

Jimbo

 

[Jimbo1490]

Will, Frederick Seitz had absolutely zero credibility at the time he wrote that piece.

So exactly what of his assertions WRT the IPCC as quoted above do you contest? Do you think it's really credible on your part to simply contest his being "Frederick Seitz"?


Jimbo

 

[troy2000]

So exactly what of his assertions WRT the IPCC as quoted above do you contest? Do you think it's really credible on your part to simply contest his being "Frederick Seitz"?


Jimbo

Give it a rest, Jimbo. I'm not even going to start with you tonight.

 

[mark775]

I thot that "the last thing the dinosaurs saw" was what you meant. I don't believe it's worth much energy but I don't think the asteroid collision was the catastrophic event many scientists theorize. To do the damage some suggest...I don't know, I think we would have a second moon. I'm not buying the Carl Sagan "impact winter" nor "nuclear winter" anymore. It was scary and told an interesting story but didn't he also claim some other winters, volcanic winters, China sandstorm winters, etc., that never materialized?
I believe we best start looking for a more plausable reason for that extinction. Cold weather maybe? Changing air composition? Could these or a combination thereof have been enough to knock 'em out? Maybe the impact alone killed bunches of them...but all? Why are birds the only clade to survive, known for their weak respiratory systems? I certainly don't know but if I take a paleontology class at the community college and say I've been thinking about it for 25 years, will I be able to get a grant?

 

[Marco1]

Let's not get plain silly with the scare tactics.

You're making a pretty tenuous connection, when you claim those people are going to decide how much I pay for utilities. I don't see a single member of the California Public Utilities Commission on the list. And I'm willing to bet none of them are consultants to it, either.

They don't need to be. Your president is going to sign up on CO2 "reduction" and to that effect he will pass the hat.... And you will be paying more for every single government or private utility. Did that escape you? Ask the Germans what the carbon trading did to their utility prices and by elevation all prices. Come on you can not have your cake and eat it too. You want the ETS or carbon rip off tax? I am not the only one that is going to pay, you will have to chip in too no worries.
And mind you, I have some spare cash and can pay my way, if only it was to a good cause.
Unfortunately it is to make a few very rich, a few more a bit richer and a lot of corrupt third world country "leaders" send the money to Switzerland as they do. I am sure you feel very good if you guys send a few billions to Mexico like we send to PNG.
All for no reason at all since nothing we do or can do will change the temperature patterns.

 

[Jimbo1490]

Of course not. Haven't you been reading Jimbo's posts? He's single-handedly destroyed the entire discipline, and proven the vast majority of climatologists to be frauds, liars, and/or incompetents..

Troy You *****,

*I* didn't destroy ANYTHING! The ~100 or so scientists who conducted very good research over a period of decades did the destroying. I merely brought their work to your attention because you were too lazy and credulous to do notice it on your own.

NOTHING you've posted on the topic of residence time and its corollary effects mounts a credible refutation of the ~60 years of good science that preceded your preferred modeled long residence time fairy tales.

Maybe you can find your life's work in helping the IPCC locate the 'mystery sink' for the other 400ppm of 'missing CO2' arising from the 'long residence time' greenie folk tale that you have chosen to believe in place of a well-proven reality.

Bring us back a bucket of compression while you're out.

Jimbo

 

[troy2000]

Troy You *****,

*I* didn't destroy ANYTHING! The ~100 or so scientists who conducted very good research over a period of decades did the destroying. I merely brought their work to your attention because you were too lazy and credulous to do notice it on your own.

NOTHING you've posted on the topic of residence time and its corollary effects mounts a credible refutation of the ~60 years of good science that preceded your preferred modeled long residence time fairy tales.

Maybe you can find your life's work in helping the IPCC locate the 'mystery sink' for the other 400ppm of 'missing CO2' arising from the 'long residence time' greenie folk tale that you have chosen to believe in place of a well-proven reality.

Bring us back a bucket of compression while you're out.

Jimbo

Like I said, Jimbo: give it a rest.

 

[Boston]

It is sad seeing this thread has recently come back again into disqualifications and personal attacks, bringing nothing useful to it. I think it's important to avoid such attitudes and just keep on posting and debating relevant information on the subject.

Proponents of the AGW say we are experiencing historically totally anomalous temperatures making ice melting etc, particularly in Greenland. Would any of such proponents or defendants please comment this graph taken from NOAA ice core data from Greenland?

There are more interesting graphics like this one here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/09/hockey-stick-observed-in-noaa-ice-core-data/

Cheers.

ok so here's that data straight from the NOAA and clearly the graph posted leaves off the relevant data ( again ) of the last hundred years
ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/pa...gisp2/isotopes/gisp2_temp_accum_alley2000.txt

thing to remember is that the graph provided was a reconstruction of dubious intent that failed to provide data for the time to present but instead and as is normal for the conspiracy theorists cherry picked data from a limited time frame of one local area of analysis, in this case Greenland.

the temps to date will be provided because if you notice the data set that was quoted stops at ~95 years before present ,which is the pertinent measure, that is what we're supposed to talking about isn't it? Today's rapid climate change and how it compares to the paleoclimate of the past, then it stands to reason to look at the data concerning the present as well as the past

which clearly shows a jump in temps in Greenland from the end of the NOAA Greenland data set by ~ 2.5° C to 3.5° in less than a hundred years, the time frame left out by the conspiracy theorists. This data when included into the local analysis ( the theory is one of global change by the way ) places the present average ice temp of Greenland conservatively at ~ -29.00 to -28 C or less and skyrocketing. So to be fare you would have to paint a vertical line continuing that graph going from near bottom to off the chart top and representing the most dramatic single temp jump in the history of the local graph of temp over time in Greenland. Ice permeability prevents the Ice data from accurately depicting these last hundred years, so other measurement considerations are necessary to get a "complete" picture of the data stream.

So the question is why do the conspiracy people cherry pick and leave out pertinent data if there position is so solidly based on a preponderance of scientific data

I have no doubt that nothing will dissuade the few from there cause to spread disinformation, but the science is clear. 97% agree
I tried to be as polite as possible and Ive no doubt I'll still get insulted, ridiculed, chased, abused and otherwise harassed for presenting the full data set.
Simple truth is that local climate change and global climate change are far from the same thing. One may or may not support the other although in this case if data to present is considered it surely does. The challenge to explain the local data cherry picked from numerous analysis of the local area was really no challenge at all and once again the conspiracy theorists are back to ground zero to formulate a new script of disinformation. Best of luck with that. Im outa here.

love
B


DATA:
1. Temperature in central Greenland


Column 1: Age (thousand years before present)
Column 2: Temperature in central Greenland (degrees C)

Age Temperature (C)
0.0951409 -31.5913
0.10713 -31.622
0.113149 -31.6026
0.119205 -31.6002
0.119205 -31.598
0.125451 -31.6656
0.132407 -31.7235
0.138807 -31.7583
0.145126 -31.8098
0.152263 -31.8415
0.152263 -31.8813
0.15938 -31.9559
0.165464 -32.0241
0.171847 -32.038
0.179421 -31.9872
0.186623 -31.9689
0.193605 -31.9954
0.200585 -32.022
0.200585 -32.0291
0.208106 -32.0198
0.215304 -32.0128
0.223068 -32.0254
0.231056 -32.0263
0.238562 -32.0213
0.245663 -32.0117
0.253461 -32.0337
0.261287 -32.0807
0.268471 -32.072
0.275943 -32.0267
0.284122 -32.0002
0.292523 -31.988
0.292523 -32.0024
0.29988 -32.0013
0.307306 -32.0133
0.314683 -32.0339
0.322114 -32.0898
0.330199 -32.0848
0.338479 -32.0848
0.346279 -32.037
0.354187 -32.005
0.361642 -31.9876
0.36936 -31.9811
0.377252 -31.9811
0.385137 -31.9926
0.393705 -31.9715
0.402092 -31.942
0.409803 -31.9187
0.417837 -31.9126
0.426195 -31.9385
0.435395 -31.9591
0.444124 -31.9648
0.444124 -32.0093
0.452151 -32.0243
0.460146 -31.9889
0.46821 -31.942
0.477154 -31.885
0.48586 -31.8772
0.493906 -31.8572
0.502128 -31.884
0.510547 -31.8584
0.51961 -31.8444
0.529979 -31.8076
0.538161 -31.8108
0.546961 -31.9024
0.555786 -31.9472
0.563878 -32.0128
0.571734 -32.0312
0.579811 -32.016
0.588184 -31.99
0.596972 -31.9488
0.604848 -31.9144
0.613338 -31.8792
0.621464 -31.8316
0.629783 -31.7896
0.638325 -31.7176
0.6469 -31.7244
0.655271 -31.7816
0.663814 -31.7732
0.672368 -31.7012
0.681144 -31.6588
0.689778 -31.7204
0.698622 -31.7436
0.707583 -31.8088
0.716254 -31.8296
0.724727 -31.8896
0.733744 -31.9744
0.742976 -31.9956
0.751827 -31.9024
0.760574 -31.7144
0.769708 -31.5472
0.77945 -31.4508
0.789362 -31.3852
0.798428 -31.3748
0.807722 -31.3456
0.81694 -31.3132
0.826615 -31.3156
0.835738 -31.3444
0.844395 -31.36
0.852799 -31.3656
0.860838 -31.3844
0.86922 -31.378
0.878411 -31.3224
0.886462 -31.2496
0.895097 -31.2776
0.903091 -31.2616
0.912228 -31.2084
0.922222 -31.0276
0.931148 -30.9288
0.939188 -30.8272
0.947684 -30.6236
0.955867 -30.4956
0.964939 -30.4628
0.973903 -30.5276
0.981625 -30.6348
0.990328 -30.6732
0.998549 -30.6752
1.00806 -30.7012
1.01675 -30.7436
1.02498 -30.886
1.03373 -30.986
1.04265 -31.0792
1.05126 -31.0816
1.05927 -31.0876
1.06818 -31.0812
1.07716 -31.1404
1.08641 -31.1968
1.09554 -31.2252
1.10413 -31.26
1.11306 -31.3228
1.12125 -31.45
1.13051 -31.5652
1.13904 -31.5872
1.14735 -31.6168
1.15586 -31.666
1.16476 -31.8344
1.17328 -31.9684
1.18046 -32.0592
1.18887 -32.1312
1.19794 -32.1568
1.20626 -32.1876
1.21472 -32.1728
1.224 -32.1616
1.23259 -32.142
1.24154 -32.0588
1.24954 -32
1.25801 -31.9184
1.26691 -31.914
1.27608 -31.8824
1.2859 -31.8288
1.2859 -31.7664
1.29524 -31.7312
1.29524 -31.7696
1.30404 -31.79
1.30404 -31.7968
1.31223 -31.7416
1.31223 -31.7568
1.32075 -31.8148
1.32946 -31.8756
1.33792 -31.8216
1.34697 -31.678
1.3561 -31.6064
1.3561 -31.54
1.36515 -31.4136
1.3755 -31.3372
1.45517 -31.2064
1.46524 -31.1224
1.47477 -31.0504
1.48454 -30.972
1.4955 -30.8616
1.50524 -30.6132
1.51486 -30.406
1.5615 -30.8536
1.57094 -30.8684
1.5812 -30.8528
1.5861 -30.8248
1.5861 -30.8028
1.61008 -30.6912
1.61543 -30.6036
1.62076 -30.4744
1.63927 -30.5144
1.64924 -30.548
1.65927 -30.6032
1.66852 -30.6744
1.67868 -30.784
1.68881 -30.9292
1.68881 -31.054
1.69948 -31.0616
1.70941 -31.0372
1.71893 -31.1236
1.72894 -31.038
1.73928 -31.0952
1.74962 -31.06
1.75946 -31.062
1.7692 -31.0356
1.78029 -30.9572
1.78971 -30.9284
1.80035 -30.9844
1.81142 -31.0492
1.82315 -31.0444
1.8333 -31.0452
1.84287 -31.1384
1.86251 -31.2244
1.87147 -31.2044
1.88188 -31.1904
1.89214 -31.1048
1.90198 -31.0352
1.91245 -30.9324
1.92203 -30.8292
1.93107 -30.5908
1.94026 -30.4624
1.94608 -30.312
1.95856 -30.308
1.96849 -30.2532
1.97799 -30.2448
1.98776 -30.23
1.99741 -30.21
2.00687 -30.1052
2.01653 -29.9572
2.01923 -29.8624
2.03356 -29.8748
2.04614 -29.8372
2.04614 -29.7996
2.0571 -29.6404
2.06824 -29.5708
2.07894 -29.6412
2.08846 -29.6832
2.0993 -29.7492
2.10836 -29.7792
2.11616 -29.8368
2.12776 -29.8812
2.13909 -30.016
2.14919 -30.1064
2.1594 -30.116
2.17028 -30.024
2.18181 -29.984
2.19224 -29.99
2.20231 -30.0324
2.21242 -30.2
2.22278 -30.3908
2.23314 -30.5716
2.2429 -30.584
2.25295 -30.5556
2.26302 -30.6676
2.27297 -30.7688
2.29293 -30.682
2.29293 -30.608
2.30303 -30.4748
2.31378 -30.3012
2.32376 -30.1432
2.33394 -30.0964
2.3545 -30.1232
2.3545 -30.0996
2.36483 -30.1556
2.37252 -30.1732
2.37252 -30.2732
2.39424 -30.4764
2.40558 -30.5296
2.41346 -30.468
2.42653 -30.3708
2.43401 -30.3168
2.4418 -30.296
2.45724 -30.3252
2.46762 -30.3972
2.4781 -30.3908
2.4781 -30.3904
2.49988 -30.3548
2.51066 -30.3288
2.52109 -30.356
2.53011 -30.534
2.54144 -30.708
2.55375 -30.7632
2.56417 -30.8272
2.57483 -30.894
2.58638 -30.8808
2.59745 -30.8524
2.60855 -30.8228
2.61946 -30.7372
2.63055 -30.7356
2.64107 -30.7968
2.65162 -30.7888
2.66191 -30.716
2.67243 -30.5204
2.6828 -30.4736
2.69378 -30.5832
2.70438 -30.6768
2.71562 -30.8152
2.72615 -30.9
2.73776 -30.9512
2.74792 -30.9668
2.7587 -30.9428
2.77179 -30.9504
2.78387 -30.8692
2.7947 -30.7616
2.80521 -30.6812
2.81616 -30.6324
2.82689 -30.5648
2.83709 -30.55
2.84742 -30.5444
2.85628 -30.4556
2.86795 -30.4336
2.87913 -30.4768
2.88976 -30.5576
2.90092 -30.598
2.91165 -30.5196
2.92235 -30.5196
2.93349 -30.5792
2.94418 -30.6144
2.95523 -30.6136
2.96584 -30.584
2.97628 -30.5716
2.98684 -30.55
2.99808 -30.6104
3.00957 -30.6812
3.02042 -30.6904
3.03162 -30.682
3.04236 -30.7092
3.04236 -30.6628
3.05323 -30.614
3.06401 -30.7688
3.07477 -30.8804
3.08533 -30.7972
3.09639 -30.5932
3.10803 -30.3016
3.12079 -30.1508
3.13329 -30.0836
3.14554 -29.982
3.15823 -29.8252
3.16981 -29.6896
3.18111 -29.6084
3.1932 -29.5512
3.20403 -29.52
3.21458 -29.4428
3.22761 -29.27
3.23771 -29.1308
3.24864 -29.046
3.26018 -28.9916
3.27439 -28.912
3.2861 -28.802
3.29707 -28.748
3.30847 -28.8592
3.32032 -29.152
3.33111 -29.5372
3.3432 -29.7272
3.35472 -29.6492
3.36737 -29.7116
3.37868 -29.9108
3.37868 -30.0028
3.39053 -30.042
3.40228 -30.068
3.41073 -30.0736
3.42556 -30.104
3.43744 -30.09
3.44934 -30.1524
3.46206 -30.2792
3.49126 -30.3076
3.51028 -30.4036
3.52252 -30.5624
3.53388 -30.5792
3.54495 -30.4848
3.55781 -30.3464
3.56909 -30.2572
3.58158 -30.1548
3.60574 -29.9812
3.61751 -29.7988
3.62631 -29.8404
3.63624 -29.896
3.65183 -29.9384
3.66517 -30.1136
3.6769 -30.2796
3.68897 -30.396
3.70128 -30.476
3.71343 -30.3912
3.72529 -30.2644
3.73611 -30.2116
3.74726 -30.2676
3.75966 -30.3796
3.77206 -30.5124
3.78402 -30.5568
3.79601 -30.768
3.80816 -30.7912
3.81744 -30.85
3.83218 -31.008
3.84379 -31.0768
3.85557 -31.046
3.86721 -31.0388
3.88009 -31.09
3.8883 -31.156
3.90487 -31.1772
3.91643 -31.1752
3.92905 -31.2212
3.94172 -31.2308
3.95367 -31.1632
3.96647 -31.088
3.97873 -31.0604
3.98962 -31.0708
3.98962 -31.0932
4.01689 -30.9952
4.01689 -30.914
4.02942 -30.9148
4.04161 -30.9116
4.0544 -30.7012
4.06709 -30.6292
4.07996 -30.6284
4.09209 -30.5092
4.10332 -30.4428
4.1178 -30.3648
4.1301 -30.3132
4.14378 -30.3044
4.15614 -30.2968
4.16817 -30.3596
4.18243 -30.4568
4.19507 -30.4828
4.20752 -30.3596
4.21928 -30.2096
4.23173 -30.184
4.2444 -30.1632
4.25679 -30.1116
4.26911 -30.2252
4.29427 -30.4428
4.29427 -30.4512
4.30731 -30.6972
4.32007 -30.7604
4.33297 -30.8104
4.34521 -30.9116
4.35767 -30.9476
4.37044 -31.0528
4.3804 -31.0964
4.3959 -31.026
4.40916 -31.0648
4.42179 -31.19
4.43329 -31.3324
4.44544 -31.4752
4.46016 -31.5024
4.47302 -31.4716
4.48559 -31.4972
4.49801 -31.4992
4.51066 -31.4524
4.52062 -31.1728
4.53626 -31.0408
4.54961 -31.0936
4.56299 -31.1496
4.57588 -31.1792
4.58879 -31.262
4.60261 -31.5564
4.61538 -31.7592
4.62865 -31.6288
4.64113 -31.546
4.65435 -31.5604
4.66728 -31.492
4.68099 -31.524
4.69271 -31.6804
4.70696 -31.7636
4.71955 -31.8592
4.73185 -31.9392
4.74497 -31.99
4.7592 -32.0408
4.77106 -31.9772
4.78446 -31.9276
4.79821 -31.9264
4.81147 -31.6268
4.82409 -31.1784
4.83594 -31.0256
4.85113 -31.0276
4.85774 -31.002
4.87831 -30.888
4.8912 -30.8236
4.90408 -30.7664
4.91732 -30.6044
4.93074 -30.526
4.94326 -30.3604
4.95743 -30.2396
4.97054 -30.24
4.98365 -30.2272
4.99637 -30.0832
5.0099 -29.9044
5.02375 -29.9024
5.03789 -30.1796
5.05163 -30.3712
5.06591 -30.3268
5.079 -30.25
5.09219 -30.2488
5.10608 -30.3864
5.12067 -30.3256
5.13425 -30.1728
5.14763 -30.114
5.16182 -29.972
5.17577 -29.9844
5.18944 -30.0092
5.20357 -29.9588
5.21773 -30.0732
5.21773 -30.1352
5.23162 -30.1988
5.24623 -30.1508
5.26047 -30.1524
5.27477 -30.274
5.28829 -30.3996
5.30205 -30.4916
5.32744 -30.656
5.3455 -30.9896
5.36025 -31.2688
5.375 -31.4068
5.38914 -31.49
5.40291 -31.4604
5.41721 -31.5168
5.43101 -31.5164
5.44433 -31.398
5.45868 -31.2252
5.47304 -31.1188
5.48824 -31.0236
5.50254 -30.9024
5.51717 -30.8612
5.53212 -30.7296
5.54742 -30.4972
5.56237 -30.2972
5.57743 -30.0928
5.59189 -30.0256
5.60692 -30.0888
5.62163 -30.0264
5.63604 -29.9068
5.65076 -29.9324
5.66574 -30.0268
5.68131 -30.1428
5.69651 -30.2084
5.71158 -30.2144
5.72768 -30.34
5.74386 -30.4028
5.75966 -30.402
5.77528 -30.4208
5.79124 -30.5328
5.80773 -30.702
5.82253 -30.5928
5.839 -30.4672
5.85463 -30.5316
5.86923 -30.5912
5.88449 -30.6264
5.90023 -30.5388
5.91558 -30.4428
5.93039 -30.4052
5.94535 -30.308
5.96034 -30.2208
5.97573 -30.286
5.99083 -30.3368
6.00596 -30.3084
6.0209 -30.2136
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[mark775]

That was rude. Boston, Did you watch the Bjorn Lomborg vid? It's worth a look-see...

 

[Marco1]

Interesting...I'll memorise the temperatures now.

the list brings up some phone numbers from time to time.
Are those to dial in an escort for when one get's bored?

Wooho its getting hot...must be global warming.

 

[mark775]

"Are those to dial in an escort for when one get's bored?" - yes, and they have Copenhagen area codes.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,665182,00.html

 

[troy2000]

I did kind of wonder what the point was of posting a temperature graph that leaves out modern times.....

 

[Pericles]

More here about B. Lomborg.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/lomborg.htm

 

[wardd]

I thot that "the last thing the dinosaurs saw" was what you meant. I don't believe it's worth much energy but I don't think the asteroid collision was the catastrophic event many scientists theorize. To do the damage some suggest...I don't know, I think we would have a second moon. I'm not buying the Carl Sagan "impact winter" nor "nuclear winter" anymore. It was scary and told an interesting story but didn't he also claim some other winters, volcanic winters, China sandstorm winters, etc., that never materialized?
I believe we best start looking for a more plausable reason for that extinction. Cold weather maybe? Changing air composition? Could these or a combination thereof have been enough to knock 'em out? Maybe the impact alone killed bunches of them...but all? Why are birds the only clade to survive, known for their weak respiratory systems? I certainly don't know but if I take a paleontology class at the community college and say I've been thinking about it for 25 years, will I be able to get a grant?

nether do i believe it was as bad as commonly thought but, and this is the biggie, a 250 mile diameter crater could ruin the day for a lot of people

 

[Jimbo1490]

Like I said, Jimbo: give it a rest.

Your remarks about my "destructiveness" reminded me of (I think it was) Keith Briffa, who said he did not want to release his data for review/confirmation (a normal part of the peer-review process, Troy) because "my critics are only going to tear it apart"

I guess you'd 'blame' the M & M team for "destroying" MBH-98, too. No credit goes to the several hundred scientists who did good, honest temperature reconstructions over the years prior to the hockey stick that stand up to rigorous peer review, not the 'back slapping' type done at the IPCC.

Jimbo