Lost Keels-Request for Information

[Doug Lord]

#1--number two to follow as edit time expires

Since I can't find a list of lost keels anywhere I've decided-hopefully with your help-to create a list. This is what I have so far-any corrections or additions would be most helpfull:

Fixed Keels/bulbs:
1) Drum-lost keel in Fastnet-Simon le bon- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
2) Holland 67- Charley- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
3) Martella(of Finland) 89 Whitbred- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
4) Warriors Wish-Ronnie Simmons- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
5) Coyote(20 years ago) http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailin...rokenseas5.htm
6) Wasabi-18 days ago http://www.cyca.com.au/newsDetail.asp?key=5347
7) Strewth TP 52 March 22, 2008 Rolex China Sea Race http://sailjuiceblog.com/tag/strewth/
8) Cheminee Poujoukat Armor Lux-need more info
9) Heatwave J-80 http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...3-30&dayid=251
10) Excaliber-need more info
11) Excide Challenger 1997 Tony Bullimore-need info
12) Bavaria Match 42 about 2005 Bavaria Match 42 lost its keel...
13) Cape Fear 38 http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
14) Moquini http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
15) Hooligan V http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
16) VM Materiaux-keel bulb -day 58 Vendee -Jean le Cam- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
17) Pandemonium, Nelson-Marek 66 lost keel on return from 89 Transpac, http://www.iataia.com.mx/modules/06-...ai/results.htm
18) 37' Jenneau lost ballast keel 2002. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/genera...st-keel-2.html
19) Time to Burn - BBW 52
http://maritimenz.govt.nz/Publicatio...report2008.pdf
20) Espana92 AC boat--see pdf below


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May be canting keels--need more info:
1) Veolia Environment day 85 Vendee-Roland Jourdain- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
2) Duracell- Mike Plant- Vendee
3) Skandia- Nick Moloney-Vendee
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Canting Keels:
1) Rambler Fastnet 2011
2) Shock 40 inshore race-need more info
3) Ericsson VOR 05-06- need more info
4) Skandia-Sydney Hobart 2004
5) Le Cam -transat-need more info
6) Ecover-Mike Golding-need more info
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My Internet Explorer/Google is functioning extremely poorly so if you have the time and can research any of the "need more info" boats I'd sure appreciate it. That way, in the future, when we have discussions about keel failure rates we will have accurate ,up to date info rather than uninformed speculation. Please help-thanks!

Note: as the forums time limit for editing this post runs out it will be continued thru quoting and updating it. Help in getting detailed info is most appreciated.

[michael pierzga]

Spanish Americas cupper...Hispania ? Off Palma de Mallorca during sail trials, tuning. Keel bolt failure

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by michael pierzga

Spanish Americas cupper...Hispania ? Off Palma de Mallorca during sail trials, tuning. Keel bolt failure

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Thanks, Michael-any links?

[BATAAN]

In SF long ago I had to pattern and replace the iron ballast keel on a Spidsgatter that had fallen off while sailing, leaving the boat on its side but not capsized.
Keel bolt failure due to corrosion.

[michael pierzga]

Hmm..links ? Ill try googling the Spanish yachting Mags. Cant remember the year, Im getting old. Spanish Navy minesweeper retrieved the keel bulb. Had the broken keel bolt as a paperweight for years.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by BATAAN

In SF long ago I had to pattern and replace the iron ballast keel on a Spidsgatter that had fallen off while sailing, leaving the boat on its side but not capsized.
Keel bolt failure due to corrosion.

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I'm having a great deal of trouble with my search engine so any help to find links for the ones that need it will be very helpful. Thanks, Bataan.

[CT 249]

Farr one ton (Ran) lost keel after grounding, Kenwood Cup 89?
De Ridder 47 lost keel and capsized, 1991 Guam-Japan race.
Planet X (Goddard half ton) lost keel off Southport (Queensland, Aust) C 1989
Promotion, Beneateau Frers 50 IOR special, lost keel in the Channel, 1989?

Needless to say, these results show that RELATIVE TO THEIR NUMBERS big canters have an enormously higher chance of losing their keels.

For example, there are six canting 100 foot "supermaxis" (Oats, Alfa, Speedboat, Maximus, Leopard, Skandia) and two of them have dropped keels, creating a staggering 33% chance of these well-campaigned boats losing their keels over a mere 6 years.

In contrast, there were well over 50 IOR "conventional" maxis constructed (see list below) since 1973, and only two of them lost their keels.

There were something like 28 IOR ULDB sleds built since 1977, and only one (Charley, the Holland 67) lost its keel. There were well over 30 IOR 50s in the '80s and only one lost its keel.

Therefore any 100 foot canter built has (so far) a 33% chance of losing its keel and capsizing, whereas any leading-edge IOR big boat had about a 4% chance of losing their keel (and ULDB sleds had a 0% chance of capsizing).

Given that other sports (i.e. F1) have dramatically increased their safety record since the '70s, it seems odd that sailing has increased the chance of a critical failure by about seven times.

Of course, these bald figures are most unfair to non-canters because they have been out there for up to 35 years or more, fighting fatigue and hitting things. And if we add in the tens of thousands of non "grand prix" boats (the 20,000 registered PHRF boats, the 6,000 or so IRC boats, the thousands of HN and LYS rated boats etc) the chances of losing a conventional fixed keel are staggeringly low.



Some IOR conventional maxis

Kialoa III, Kialoa IV, Kialoa V, Condor of Bermuda, Condor II, Siska IV/Vengeance, Ballyhoo/Mistress Quickly, OCean Greyhound/FCF. Pen Duick, Great Britian II, Helisara, Bumblebee III, Emeraude, Sovereign, Ondine III, Ondine IV, Ondine V, Congere, Apollo, Lion, Drum, NZI, Atlantic Privateer, UBS, Anaconda II, Sassy, Il Moro di Venezia, Windward Passage II, Stienlager II, NZ Endeavour, Fisher and Paykel, El Poste, Merit, Merit Cup, Midnight Sun, the other Bumblebee III near-sister, Drumbeat, Flyer II, Fortuna Lights, Cote D'Or, Defender, NCB Ireland, Longobarda, Boomerang, Union Bank, Fasizi, Wesbank, Fortuna Extra Lights.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CT 249

There were something like 28 IOR ULDB sleds built since 1977, and only one (Charley, the Holland 67) lost its keel.

There was one more. The N/M 68 from Japan (Marishiten sp?) also lost their keel.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Paul B

There was one more. The N/M 68 from Japan (Marishiten sp?) also lost their keel.

Come to think of it, I think the N/M66 Pandemonium also dropped their keel.

[MikeJohns]

A list of the high profile media cases excludes the ‘quiet’ failures.

What about the boats that are pulled out after strange noises for inspection to find the keel or it’s attachment close to failure . There’s no death or high profile race and these go not only unreported but often under terms of the court settlement un-reportable. This is most frustrating and I’ve argued before that we should have mandatory reporting for inherent design flaws and a public register.

I’ve seen several disasters and even re-designed one ULDB keel that was horribly designed, I provided an engineering report on the cracks to the insurance company.

There’s also the very real problem of design life simply being exceeded and designers lacking the wherewithal to actually provide this sort of data.

I’d suggest for every high profile case you’d be looking at statistics at least orders of magnitude higher. So I’m curious as to what you‘d hope to achieve. I don't think the high profile cases provide enough of a sample for any accurate observation.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

A list of the high profile media cases excludes the ‘quiet’ failures.

What about the boats that are pulled out after strange noises for inspection to find the keel or it’s attachment close to failure . There’s no death or high profile race and these go not only unreported but often under terms of the court settlement un-reportable. This is most frustrating and I’ve argued before that we should have mandatory reporting for inherent design flaws and a public register.

I’ve seen several disasters and even re-designed one ULDB keel that was horribly designed, I provided an engineering report on the cracks to the insurance company.

There’s also the very real problem of design life simply being exceeded and designers lacking the wherewithal to actually provide this sort of data.

I’d suggest for every high profile case you’d be looking at statistics at least orders of magnitude higher. So I’m curious as to what you‘d hope to achieve. I don't think the high profile cases provide enough of a sample for any accurate observation.

=============
I'd say lets do the best we can and get as much info in one place as humanly possible. And over time refine the information with more facts.
But lets limit this to verifiable facts-high profile or not.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

So I’m curious as to what you‘d hope to achieve.

You know exactly what he hopes to achieve.

The Lord of All Canting and Foiling needs to document as many issues as possible of the non-canters to show that his beloved canters are no more problematic than other boats.

[Stumble]

The Melges 30' lost their keels en-mass. I can't remember now, but at least two dropped keels at the same regatta.

[Steve W]

Digby Taylors entry in a doublehanded race, maybe Melbourne/Osaka race some years ago dropped its keel i think,the crewmember was lost. Sorry,i dont remembr names.
Steve,

[CT 249]

Yep, Steve's right - it was Castaway Enterprise.

Info from this board includes the following canter failures;

2005 Vendee

-Sill e Voila/ Jourdain: failure with a crack in the keel support, retired
-PRB/Riou: hydraulic failure of a ram, kept on racing
-Skandia/Moloney: total loss of the keel, retired
-Norbert Sedlacek/Brother: failure of the keel support, retired
-Ecover/golding: partial loss of the keel, hope he'll get the finish line!!!
-Hellomoto/Conrad Humpreys: failure on starboard ram, keep on with port ram


For conventional boats, add the Farr 38 IMS (not built as designed) Rising Farrster lost her keel and capsized with the loss of two lives in 1993 in Australia.

The Farr One Tonner Fram lost her keel and sank in the 1991 ? Admiral's Cup, but that was after a grounding, as was the loss of the keel of the Japanese Farr one tonner (?) in the Kenwood Cup, already mentioned. Obviously keels that could withstand groundings would be better, but such impact obviously is relevant when comparing such incidents with boats like the canters that lost their keels WITHOUT hitting the bottom. And if we include the Farr One Tons that were lost through groundings then we also have to include heavyweights that were lost through groundings, and they include conventional boats like Colin Archers, S&Ss and Top Hats.

There are also something like 40-80 Farr 30.5 rating one tons of various sorts (if I recall correctly from a Sailing World article) that have been sailing since 1981, therefore (even ignoring the fact that the only keel losses I know occurred in groundings) the proportion of lost keels is much smaller than that of the supermaxi canters, despite the fact that the Farr One Ton type has been around for decades longer.

Personally I can't see why rules can't require longer keel roots or whatever else would make keels stronger. Yeah, it might slow boats down by a fraction of a percent, but other sports reduce performance to increase safety. From car and bicycle racing to javelin throwing, it is accepted that it's only logical to improve safety at the cost of performance.

Once again, the percentages point to a hugely higher risk associated with canting keels as far as I can see. For example, the tragic loss of Rising Farrster must be seen in the context that there are something like 100 or more of the 38/38IMS/11.6/extended 11.6 (all variants of the same design) sailing around the world - Royal Cape in Cape Town alone lists 10 on their ratings sheet. I think the RCYC can get about as many Farr 38/40 (their name for the extended stern version) for a club race as supermaxi canters have ever existed. These designs have been racing in windy places like NZ, Australia and South Africa since 1978, with one keel lost - and the Coroner's report on the Rising Farrster loss states that she was not built to plan and the ABS requirements were too lax.

Therefore the loss of a keel in 1 in 100 or so of this typical design cannot be seen to be anything like the loss of 2 keels among just 6 canting supermaxis, in only 20% of the time span in which Farr 11.6 variants have been sailing the oceans. Not to mention, of course, that there are many hundreds of similar boats (Farr 1020s, Farr 1104s, Farr 1220s to name just a few) that have been sailing offshore for decades without any of these problems.

That's a far call from the percentage of problems we seem to see with canters and ultra high aspect foils.