The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

[PAR]

then the bubbles will augment emergency floatation.

Possibly augment bottom cleaning too . . .

...use red champaign, you´ll have a emergency signal too, colouring the water!

[ancient kayaker]

Champagne! Wonderful stuff. Enough of it will solve all your problems - pity it's not a bit cheaper. I remember buying it for about 50c a bottle in Spain, shortly after I was married. The brandy was a bit more, but not much.

I'll leave you to guess how long ago that was ...

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Champagne! Wonderful stuff. Enough of it will solve all your problems - pity it's not a bit cheaper. I remember buying it for about 50c a bottle in Spain, shortly after I was married. The brandy was a bit more, but not much.
I'll leave you to guess how long ago that was ...

Hmm,
I remeber when the wheel was invented.

I even remember when the lie about adam and eve became common belief. I was very young then...

Heck I can remeber when the earth was struck by planetoids (turning our world into a liveable environment).

But I do not remember the day when the lazy French gave anything away which was not overpriced by at least two times.

You must be much older than I can imagine..........

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by apex1

... You must be much older than I can imagine..........

- I have a feeling this is not going to be the last post ...

[viking north]

The proper motorsailer, Possibly the safest,most pratical,and economical vessel out there but has gotten a bad wrap mainly because of some of the monstrosities labeled as a motorsailers. The other problem is, people have not been properly educated as to what a motorsailer is. Motorsailers like their cousins power and sail boats fall into different catagories. Examples a 70/30 is closer to a power boat than a sailer. A 30/70 is closer to a typical heavy crusing sail boat. In my mind a proper motorsailer is one closer to a 50/50 rating. The typical 50/50 motorsailer is no racehorse to windward but will do so and certainly should have the ability to claw off a lee shore and do both with the engine off.She should be have full external ballased keel or close to being so to give her the ability to stand up to a good stiff breeze on a beam reach which is her best point of sail. She should not have the broad stern of a power boat but that of a heavy crusing sail boat or even double ended and those features combined with her full keel and aft positioned rudder will give her excellent handling when running with it.The other important characteristic that will result from the above specs is that with the sails up and motor ticking over you will sail closer to the wind than the finest sailers and on 1/4 the fuel when compared to the same motor in a power boat. Ahh on a cold windy rainy day beatin to winward sitting in a heated wheelhouse with a hot cup of cocoa, and some good Irish music, ya just can't top it.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by gunship

commonly, motorsailors seem to be regarded as either a bad compromise or as a motorboat with a mast. i cannot really understand why this would have to be the case.

For a few years, my family had a motorsailor. the motorboat with a mast type - as it had no keel. many people i know had sailors with an inboard engine, but no pilothouse.

commonly the thing that conflicts between motor vessels and sailors are the Keel and the pilothouse, and some hull shape differences. but if youre not planning on excessive speeds, is the hull shape really such a decisive factor? i understand that an ideal motor vessel would have a hull designed to fit with the propeller, which would decrease sailing performance. would a waterjet be a solution?

(following is some gobbledeygook that the casual can skip)

layout wise, the pilothouse is a problem. the motorsailer we had had a pilothouse halfway lowered, and a hatch, so if you stood at the helm, you would be standing up through the roof. i found that a pretty good sollution, maybe not ideal, but very functional. the problem was the cockpit, that was nonexistant. on my philosophical sketches (As in just theorycrafted) i placed the cockpit practically on deck level behind the pilothouse. while not providing quite as good protection against the seas, i figured in a storm you always have the pilothouse. the cockpid i sketched was lowered a little, so that youre clear of the boom when standing, and you could see over the pilothouse.

If someone bothered following me on that, what do you think?

is there any other ovious problems with a motorsailor?

Once upon a time many motorsailers were designed, built, and sold. These boats were comfortable and proved very desirable for extensive cruising. Built of wood, strongly framed, and powered with big heavy engines, they were somewhat compromised in sailing ability and certainly did not power at high speeds. They were never expected to do so.

Beautiful yachts of this persuasion were designed by Rhodes, Davis, Mason, and Hand to name just a few. These boats were handsome and purposeful. They were motorsailers that went to sea, provided great range and served their owners well. Designs such as these were capable of long voyages with a minimum crew and appreciated for their reliability of sail.

Owners perfected the art of motorsailing. They depended upon the stability and economic advantages motorsailers provided. Wonderful boats were these, masterfully designed and tastefully detailed.

One particular design has haunted me for years. It was I think a Phil Rhodes design somewhere around 60'~70', a ketch, with a sizable twin engine room, over which was located a grand main saloon with portlights above deck level. This main saloon had great comfort and expansive vista's, and opened onto a sizable aft deck with a fishing chair at its center. There was even a mini-flybridge helm station and a crow's nest. What a great all-around design to liveaboard and travel the world. She could do anything and everything!! I have in 30 years only seen one or two comparable designs, and sadly I lost those clippings and the pictures of the original design, but the concept has remained with me all these years.

We don't hear much of motorsailers these days. They're not a popular subject. Traditional motorsailers have always been such a compromise, they have fallen into disfavor in the market, and in the boating literature. The term has even had negative connotations for several decades now. Should not today's boats be faster and better with new materials, light marine diesels, and better shapes? Should not this be the sensible alternative, the common sense move up from the beloved family sailboat? When trawler options are discussed, suggestions of boredom arise. A lifetime of sail would be discarded, and what happens when the motor quits? Well, hopefully it won't quit, but one can always sail home in a boat with sails on it. For truly long-range cruising and/or remote exploration, the motorsailer can outshine both the sailing aux and the trawler types.

We need to modernize the motorsailer. The multihull plan-form holds great promises to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran type vessel have proven themselves to be real efficient to push under both power & sail. And not only are they efficient, but they can be pushed beyond the traditional hull-length/speed limitations. Just what the modern motorsailer needs, a far less compromising increase in both their sail & power performance, while maintaining an economy of operation that allows truly long range capability.

....more HERE:
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

[rickinnocal]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Once upon a time many motorsailers were designed, built, and sold. ... Beautiful yachts of this persuasion were designed by Rhodes, Davis, Mason, and Hand to name just a few. These boats were handsome and purposeful.

I would add 'Skip' Calkins to that list. His 50' "Legend" was not only a beautiful boat, but it won the 1957 TransPac.

My "Glory B" was built to a modification of Legends design, being stretched to 54' and with a stern cabin added.

Launched in 1996, she was never finished as the original owner passed away, and her second owner just kept her as a live-aboard. She was truly designed for long-haul ocean cruising. She has a long fin keel with lead ballast to balance a large area / low aspect sloop rig (Main has a 45' luff, 23' foot) for easy handling and good cruising, and a 135hp Ford Lehman engine that gives her 7 or 8 knots at about 1 1/2 gallons an hour. 700 gallons of diesel tankage and 900 gallons of water give great range, as do all sort of deep 'pantry' storage areas built into the hull.

This week, "God willing and the crick don't rise", I will be stepping a mast on Glory B, and she will be a sailboat for the first time ever. Although she was built with proper chainplates, no mast was ever stepped. I have had a steel compression post fabricated and installed, through-bolted to a deck step.

Still be a while before I can sail her - there's still no whinches or other sailing hardware on deck - (Oh, and I'll need sails...) but slowly and surely she's becoming the boat she was meant to be.

As she sits today...

[bulk-head]

Nice Boat !! Keep an eye on the anchor chain roller setup..... tremendous load on anchor chain handling gear, also looks like the chain could jump off the roller. Needs taller cheeks....

Bruce anchors are great for holding power, but always difficult to house. CQR's nest easily.

[rickinnocal]

Originally Posted by bulk-head

Nice Boat !! Keep an eye on the anchor chain roller setup..... tremendous load on anchor chain handling gear, also looks like the chain could jump off the roller. Needs taller cheeks....

Bruce anchors are great for holding power, but always difficult to house. CQR's nest easily.

Yes, the cheeks are far too small. I've anchored her only once, after motoring over to Sausalito for a weekend just to give her a run, do engine trials etc. The chain jumped the guide with only about 10' or 15' of side load while trying to weigh it. Ended up having to have my son lean over the bow pulpit and haul it up by hand. Lucky there was only about 20' of water and he wasn't trying to dead-lift 100' of chain! Once the anchow was hanging free he was able to drop the chain back in the roller and step on the windlass button.

Just another fix-it job.......

Richard

[bulk-head]

Not long ago I saw a yacht whose chain jumped the roller while anchored in a gale. The chain sawed thru the topsides !

Wally anchor...sorry for bad picture....high cheeks, and locking pin keeping chain down and for motoring into a seaway

[viking north]

Rickinocal, she is a beautiful looking vessel certainly not what one would visualize as a traditional looking motorsailer. I would suspect with proper rigging and sails and i recall you saying she has a fin keel no doubt she would outperform most crusing sailboats in her class. I would group her more as a fairley high performance crusing sailboat and less in the motorsailer range. With a proper sail set up don't underestimate the power in her sails to overcome the resistance of that low sleek superstructure which is not much more than a raised section of trunk cabin plus a dodger. Question is the eyebrow a breakaway design, it looks like it is as green water has enought power to do alot of damage wherever it can be trapped. Always thought they should be set up on some sort of a hinge arrangement or have the ability to be removed in heavy weather. Once again a beautiful looking boat, take the time and money to have proper rigging and sails designed and installed you'll never regret it, do her justice.
Geo.

[rickinnocal]

Luckily for me, most of the designers original drawings are still aboard, so I don't need to design the rig anew. It looks a little low by the standards of todays tall skinny rigs, but on a cruiser, does one really need to worry about steering a quarter of a point closer to the wind?

Richard

[bulk-head]

Make sure your rig is none masthead. 15\16. Masthead rigs get very crowded on top with modern roller furlers. Spinnaker halyards end up dragging on the head stay furler. Much easier to use a roller furl asymmetric and jibe the asymmetric, when the mast has free space at the masthead. Hard to find a modern yacht these days that is not 15/16th rigged.

[brian eiland]

Nice looking vessel...reminds me a little of a stretched Pearson Countess design
Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden